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Post Info TOPIC: Huygens lands Titan
Brucie B.

Date:
Huygens lands Titan


Does anyone else think Titan is a freaky lookin' place? http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/index.html What ever happen to a uniform pocked marked rock concept once touted for our solar system ??

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10kBq jaro

Date:

Another question : which of the Planetary Society's Huygens landing on Titan art contest entries do you think came closest to representing the actual scene ? ....see http://planetary.org/saturn/artcontest.html


I think this one came pretty damned close : http://planetary.org/saturn/contest/artur_rataj.html


.....although this one looks pretty good too : http://planetary.org/saturn/contest/emile-raphael_franco.html


as does this one : http://planetary.org/saturn/contest/steven_hobbs.html


But personally, I was hoping for something like this : http://planetary.org/saturn/contest/bryce_jacobs.html



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GoogleNaut

Date:

Really fascinating photos on the ESA site: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/

Some pictures look like river deltas flowing into a sea. I can only imagine that they must be streams of liquid methane/ethane. The surface of Titan is supposed to be about -292 degrees Fahrenheit (93 Kelvin.) This ought to make it easy for using high temperature superconductors on Titan--they're already at 'room' temperature!

Makes an Antarctic Winter seem bamly in comparison!

Anyone seen any chemical analysis yet?

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GoogleNaut

Date:

I loved the art too. Especially the last one, Jaro. Talk about getting 'carried away!'


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Dusty

Date:

For life to exist I suspect we need three things


1) an energy sourse


2) suitable chemistry


3) a suitable solvent for the chemistry to take place in


So, what do you think??



Dusty


 



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GoogleNaut

Date:

All other things being equal--I believe that is essentially correct. I don't think life could exist on Titan--certainly not life as we understand it. Although the temperature is just about right for high-temperature superconductors--perhaps some form of superconducting crystaline life--pretty exotic and not very likely.

My guess is that life--if and when it is found--will probably resemble primitive Earth forms. Now this isn't just a lack of imagination on my part--it's because the really primitive forms from Earth's past represent some of the sparcest minimums needed to sustain life at all. The simplest life forms will probably be the most numerous from a purely statistical point of view, and are farely easy to detect. Also, because of this, detecting evidence of past life forms can be as simple as searching for micro-fossils with a microspcope. This is one reason why I would like to see a mini-electron microscope or miniature optical microscope packed into the scientific package for the MSL (Mars Science Laboratory) Rover mission for 2008..

Without getting into detailed discussions about DNA and the basis of life--I believe that with only one data point (our Earth Life Form point of view) that we still can make some educated guesses as to what we may find based on some straightforward assumptions.

As you say, life needs an energy source. An obvious energy source is photon energy (light.) Life on Earth developed photosynthesis billions of years ago. Photosynthesis was (is thought to have been) responsible for transforming Earth's early reducing atmosphere (similar to Titan's possibly) into the oxidizing atmosphere we have today.
Sunlight powers this active process. And photosynthesis is so prevalent on Earth that the spectral signature for chlorophyl is detectible from space. Given a sufficiently large network of optical telescopes at interstellar distances, the characteristic absorption spectra of chlorophyl, oxygen and methane are all detectible--giving an almost unmistakable signature for life. Similar processes are likely to work elsewhere, so if we look for similar signatures then we may just find evidence for life on other terrestrial worlds.

Suitable chemistry: the organic complexities of carbon are universal and unrivalled by any other element. Silicon chemistry is possible, but since carbon is lighter it is likely that compact, energetic chemsitry involving carbon will be statistically preferred--Darwinian selection will probably ensure that. And so we may hypothesize that it is almost certain that any life we find elsewhere in the universe will also be carbon based.

Suitable solvent: water is one of the simplest molecules in the universe, and the components to make water are also abundant. It seems likely that wherever terrestrial worlds have formed that also have abundant carbonaceous material will also likely have abundant water. Ammonia based chemistry is also possible, but the chemical reactions involving carbon are very slow at the conditions at which ammonia is likely to be a liquid. Ammonia silicon chemistry doesn't seem even remotely likely. Carbon/water chemistry seems like a good choice--and it certainly works for us.

It is all a series of guesses, of course, but they're pretty good guesses. This makes me think that the most likely place to find life in our solar system beyond Earth is probably Europa. Europa is likely to have all of the essential ingredients, including energy (in the form of chemical seeps at the bottom of its ocean.) The most likely place we will find evidence for past life is probably Mars. If we find life on Mars, I would hypothesize that it stands a very good chance of being closely related to primitive Earth forms. Why? Because past meteorite impacts will have likely blasted chunks of rock from one body to the other. Chances are pretty good that aleast in some of those rocks, microbes survived the violent ejection process and the long cruise through space. Thus I conclude that cross 'fertilization' may have been likely between Earth and Mars in the past. Moreover, since Earth is heftier than Mars, I would add that the probability vector for transport of life points from Mars to the Earth! (Now hows that for a startling idea?)

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10kBq jaro

Date:

I certainly agree on Europa and the arguments about life being more likely there than on Titan. However, can we be certain that there are no hotspots anywhere on/in Titan ? Also, what about sub-surface water reservoirs maintained in the liquid state by solutes like ammonia, salts, etc ? .....I seem to recall there even being some speculation for a small potential for microbial life in Neptune's moon Triton - with internal energy sources plenty evident from the numerous active cryo-volcanoes photographed by Voyager. Can we be certain that Titan's opaque atmosphere isn't hiding similar cryo-volcanism - maybe even more energetic and widespread than that of Triton ? ....too early to say definitively, IMO, though I would concede the unlikelihood of penguin-like creatutes in -200F conditions

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GoogleNaut

Date:

Cryovolcanism is almost probable on Titan given the apparent weather activity and presence of landforms there. Certainly hotspots are favorable for pockets of life. Wouldn't it be fantastic if we ended up finding life EVERYWHERE we looked where conditions were favorable for it to be? Such a finding would be astounding and would imply a Universe filled to the brim with life. Surely in such a universe intelligence would have arisen many times, and we would thus be one of many millions of species contemplating the cosmos...

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Philipum

Date:

Concerning the resemblance between life on Earth and elsewhere:

If we look at planets around other stars than the Sun, depending of the history of the stuff it is made of (it may have gone through one stellar cycle, two, three, or many...), the abundances of the elements could be very different than on Earth. Therefore, I find it difficult to draw conclusions about how similar the chemistry would be.

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GoogleNaut

Date:

But Chemisty is governed by statistics--and that doesn't change no matter where you are in the observable universe. The basic processes which apparently created life here on Earh, operate everywhere--so the basic chemistry ought to be pretty much the same. That isn't to say that different conditions may not achieve different results--only that the robustness and variety of carbon-based life seems favourable for the formation of such carbon-based life elsewhere...

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10kBq jaro

Date:

from http://planetary.org/news/2005/huygens_science-results_0121.html

......scientists are already looking ahead to possible future missions. The most important aspect of a future Titan mission, according to Huygens project scientist Jean-Pierre Lebreton, would be "mobility." The most effective way to do this on Titan is with "a floating machine," he said. (Titan, with its low gravity and thick but not too thick atmosphere, is the most flight-friendly body in the solar system.) But Lebreton laughed as he added that he had just had a phone call from the Mars Exploration Rover team, who "now are dreaming of sending their rovers on the surface of Titan. From what we have seen of the surface, this is now highly possible: we can dream of sending rovers on Titan." Perhaps Huygens' most lasting contribution to the study of Titan will be as a pathfinder, showing that sending a long-lived, mobile spacecradt to Titan's surface would be a worthwhile endeavor. <end quote>


.....of course any Titan rovers couldn't be the MER-type; rather, they would have to be MSL-type nuke powered beasts, for the obvious reason of there not being much light on the surface of Titan. But I would agree that an aerial rover would be the better way to go. Specifically, *not* a "floating machine," but a helicopter :  with the low gravity and dense atmosphere, the place is extremely helicopter-friendly, requiring radically smaller blade spans, rotation rates and total energy requirements (its been suggested that multi-kilometer hops would be followed by overnight battery recharging from the on-board RTG..... great plan, IMO).



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10kBq jaro

Date:


How about this :


http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/ap_huygens_update_050127.html


Titan's Methane Not Produced by Life, Scientists Say


<SNIP>


Based on data collected by Huygens' instruments, Sushil Atreya, a professor of planetary science at the University of Michigan in the United States, believes a hydro-geological process between water and rocks deep inside the moon could be producing the methane.


"I think the process is quite likely in the interior of Titan," Atreya said in a telephone interview.


The process is called serpentinisation and is basically the reaction between water and rocks at 100 to 400 degrees Celsius (212 to 752 degrees Fahrenheit), he said.


<SNIP>



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Dusty

Date:

So,


We have organic chemicals, liquid water and earth like temperatures!


Hmmn!



Dusty



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GoogleNaut

Date:

Indeed,

Could be life in Titan's interior. A deep drilling rig on Titan may bring up microbes from several tens of kilometers down...who knows?

I suspect that a first attempt at detection of life beyond Earth may be made on Mars, in the deep saline aquifers that are thought to be there; then Europa with an ice penetrating probe; and then Titan.

I'm sure humanity will learn a lot in the attempts--which makes the whole thing worth it.

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10kBq jaro

Date:

http://www.physorg.com/news3111.html


Titan's Atmosphere Comes from Ammonia, Huygens Data Say


February 18, 2005



Cassini-Huygens supplied new evidence about why Titan has an atmosphere, making it unique among all solar system moons, a University of Arizona planetary scientist says.


Scientists can infer from Cassini-Huygens results that Titan has ammonia, said Jonathan I. Lunine, an interdisciplinary scientist for the European Space Agency's Huygens probe that landed on Titan last month.


"I think what's clear from the data is that Titan has accreted or acquired significant amounts of ammonia, as well as water," Lunine said. "If ammonia is present, it may be responsible for resurfacing significant parts of Titan."


He predicts that Cassini instruments will find that Titan has a liquid ammonia-and-water layer beneath its hard, water-ice surface. Cassini will see -- Cassini radar has likely already seen -- places where liquid ammonia-and-water slurry erupted from extremely cold volcanoes and flowed across Titan's landscape. Ammonia in the thick mixture released in this way, called "cryovolcanism," could be the source of molecular nitrogen, the major gas in Titan's atmosphere.


Lunine and five other Cassini scientists reported on the latest results from the Cassini-Huygens mission at the American Association for the Advancement of Science meeting in Washington, D.C. today (Feb. 19).


Cassini radar imaged a feature that resembles a basaltic flow on Earth when it made its first close pass by Titan in October 2004. Scientists believe that Titan has a rock core, surrounded by an overlying layer of rock-hard water ice. Ammonia in Titan's volcanic fluid would lower the freezing point of water, lower the fluid's density so it would be about as buoyant as water ice, and increase viscosity to about that of basalt, Lunine said. "The feature seen in the radar data suggests ammonia is at work on Titan in cryovolcanism."


<SNIP>


======



"Ammonia !  Ammonia !"


http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/A/ammonialife.html



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10kBq jaro

Date:

Looking at the very sparse radar imaging coverage of Titan by Cassini, it seems to me that NASA/ESA should put Cassini into orbit around Titan, to get a complete, detailed global coverage.


The question then arises whether this can be done.


Looking at the planned Cassini orbital tour, at http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMD6E2VQUD_0.html (click on "fast animation" above the window) ....I see that in early 2007 that Cassini orbits get quite circularised, approaching the orbit of Titan --- it should not require huge propellant expenditures from there, it seems, to slip into Titan orbit.


Any thoughts ?



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Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 411
Date:
Study Suggests Titan May Hold Keys For Exotic Brand Of Life



http://www.physorg.com/news6338.html


Study Suggests Titan May Hold Keys For Exotic Brand Of Life


September 09, 2005


Saturn's moon Titan has long been a place of interest to astrobiologists, primarily because of its apparent similarities to the early Earth at the time life first started. A thick atmosphere composed primarily of nitrogen and abundant organic molecules (the ingredients of life as we know it) are among the important similarities between these two otherwise dissimilar planetary bodies.



Scientists have considered it very unlikely that Titan hosts life today, primarily because it is so cold (-289 degrees Fahrenheit, or -178 Celsius) that the chemical reactions necessary for life would proceed too slowly. Yet previously published data, along with new discoveries about extreme organisms on Earth, raise the prospect that some habitable locales may indeed exist on Titan.


In a paper being presented at the Division for Planetary Sciences 2005 Meeting this week, a team of researchers from Southwest Research Institute (SwRI) and Washington State University say that several key requirements for life now appear to be present on Titan, including liquid reservoirs, organic molecules and ample energy sources.


Methane clouds and surface characteristics strongly imply the presence of an active global methane cycle analogous to Earth's hydrological cycle. It is unknown whether life can exist in liquid methane, although some such chemical schemes have been postulated. Further, abundant hints of ice volcanism suggest that reservoirs of liquid water mixed with ammonia may exist close to the surface.


"One promising location for habitability may be hot springs in contact with hydrocarbon reservoirs," says lead author David H. Grinspoon, a staff scientist in the SwRI Space Science and Engineering Division. "There is no shortage of energy sources [food] because energy-rich hydrocarbons are constantly being manufactured in the upper atmosphere, by the action of sunlight on methane, and falling to the surface."


In particular, the team suggests that acetylene, which is abundant, could be used by organisms, in reaction with hydrogen gas, to release vast amounts of energy that could be used to power metabolism. Such a biosphere would be, at least indirectly, solar-powered.


"The energy released could even be used by organisms to heat their surroundings, helping them to create their own liquid croenvironments," says Grinspoon. "In environments that are energy-rich but liquid-poor, like the near-surface of Titan, natural selection may favor organisms that use their metabolic heat to melt their own watering holes."


The team says these ideas are quite speculative but useful in that they force researchers to question the definition and universal needs of life, and to consider the possibility that life might evolve in very different environments.



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