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Post Info TOPIC: ITER: "Reactor carries scientists' hopes"


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ITER: "Reactor carries scientists' hopes"


Reactor carries scientists' hopes / Planned French facility may be last chance for dreams of cheap power through fusion

San Francisco Chronicle
26 June 2007
Keay Davidson
Chronicle Science Writer

Construction began this year in France on one of the largest machines ever built -- a $12 billion, eight-story nuclear fusion reactor that some researchers hope will mark the beginning of the end of the world's recurrent energy crises.

The International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor, or ITER (pronounced "eat-er"), won't be a commercial reactor plugged into an electric grid to power homes and businesses. Rather, it will be a prototype to test the feasibility of fusion as an energy source for the masses.

In March, workers finished felling trees at the ITER site at Cadarache, France, and construction of the facility is under way now.

The project is slated to be up and running before 2016.

Within its vast, doughnut-shaped interior, a superhot mist or plasma will merge or "fuse" subatomic nuclei to unleash their immense inner energies as with the sun or a hydrogen bomb. The process has been studied for decades as a potential energy source that believers say would be far cleaner than burning fossil fuels or nuclear fission, which is used in nuclear reactors but produces dangerous radioactive waste.

But after all that time and tens of billions of dollars that the United States and other nations have poured into research, fusion energy has yet to power a single toaster, TV or iPod. So there's a lot riding on the prototype reactor, which emerged from a scientific effort by the United States and six other nations.

If it fails, it will be another in a long series of fusion- research duds.Only this time, it would be such a colossal failure that it could kill all fusion research for good.

Success would be a significant step forward in science's search for a permanent and nonpolluting energy source, even if it will take a few more decades of research and development before fusion energy can be proved economically and environmentally attractive for mass production.

Critics say research of nuclear power fusion is a wasted effort. They say fusion reactors for mass production of commercial electricity will cost fortunes because of their monstrous size and complexity. They also say the claims that fusion energy is clean are false. The fusion reaction itself, they say, will make the reactor vessel radioactive, and that means it'll eventually have to be discarded, perhaps buried -- but where? At the moment that's anyone's guess, given public hostility to radioactive waste sites.

Supporters acknowledge that nuclear fusion will produce radioactive waste.But like the pollution from a Toyota Prius versus a Hummer, the radioactive waste from fusion versus fission will be at a lesser volume and intensity.

Scientists have been dreaming about fusion energy since at least the 1930s. But research didn't really take off until the 1950s, when fusion won the hearts of a small number of idealistic scientists. As they saw it, fusion energy offered a dirt-cheap source of electricity that could benefit underdeveloped nations and the impoverished.

Christine Celata, a leading fusion researcher at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, said her career path was determined in part after she heard one expert call it "peaceful power for the poor."

"It's hard to find anybody in fusion who didn't want to save the planet," Celata said.

They had no idea how many decades of disappointment lay ahead. Nowadays, they've grown tired of hearing the old joke, "Fusion is the future of energy -- and always will be."

Like aging hippies who still sport weathered peace symbols, Lawrence Berkeley staffers cling to their idealistic vision. In their PowerPoint presentation about fusion, one image shows a fusion plant on a sunny coastline under the headline: "Heavy Ion Fusion -- Peaceful Power for the Poor."

Enthusiasm for fusion energy, however, is no longer shared by Congress, which agreed to fund the United States' contribution to ITER -- estimated at more than $1 billion by the time it's completed -- on one condition: that almost all other nonmilitary U.S. fusion research stop.

That upsets Celata and her colleagues at Lawrence Berkeley and other fusion labs who believe there's good reason to continue exploring alternative fusion approaches while the new project gets going.

"I'm a zealot," said Grant Logan, a veteran Lawrence Berkeley fusion researcher. "It's like trying to create conditions at the center of the sun."

Scientists have explored numerous possible routes to fusion over the decades. These range from the technically promising, such as magnetic fusion, to the dubious, like "cold" fusion, which attracted wide attention in the late 1980s but quickly proved to be pseudoscience.

The leading alternative to magnetic fusion is "inertial confinement." In this approach, a pellet of nuclear fuel (hydrogen isotopes called deuterium and tritium) are bombarded by multiple beams of energy -- either photons, laser beams composed of light particles, or heavy-ion beams of elements such as xenon. The bombardment compresses or implodes the pellet, forcing its atomic nuclei to fuse and expel energy.

For years, Celata, Logan and their colleagues at Lawrence Berkeley and Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory have researched inertial confinement.The Lawrence Berkeley team pursues the heavy- ion approach, while Livermore investigates the laser method.

Unfortunately, the Bay Area scientists face the same kind of demon -- "instabilities" -- that has long taunted magnetic fusion researchers elsewhere. Ideally, the fuel pellet must implode in a smooth, symmetrical manner -- that is, it must remain highly spherical even as it compresses. In reality, it deforms into an uneven shape that ruins the fusion process.

The need to solve the instabilities problem is one major reason for building ITER -- its size is expected to be an advantage because the bigger the reactor, the fewer the instabilities. Or so theorists hope.

Even if scientists overcome the technical issues, it will take years of research to solve fusion's other potential problems.

One, for example, is what to do about the radioactive waste fusion reaction will generate by producing neutrons that quickly turn the reactor vessel into a highly radioactive object that eventually will have to be discarded.

One of ITER's key subprojects is looking for reactor building materials that are least vulnerable to becoming radioactive. Whatever material they choose has upsides and downsides. ITER will be so hot that its own components could be damaged.

A possible solution is lining the reactor vessel wall with carbon, which readily absorbs heat. But carbon also could readily bind with tritium, and since carbon binds quickly with living organisms, it could pose an environmental threat if it escapes from the reactor.

Scientists also could line the walls with tungsten; unfortunately, its tendency to develop a strong positive charge could dispel the electrified plasma. Or they could use beryllium, but it's a dangerous poison and it melts too easily. And so on.

"ITER carries very large risks," said nuclear engineering Professor Per Peterson of UC Berkeley.

Scientists, engineers and energy experts are sharply divided over whether controlled fusion has a future.

Steve Chu, the Nobel Prize-winning physicist who heads Lawrence Berkeley, drew laughter in September when he told an audience at an energy conference at Stanford: "I'm going to skip (discussing) fusion because it will probably skip the 21st century."

Such gloomy talk doesn't dispirit the true believers at fusion labs around the world. They've heard it all before.

"Fusion would be much safer (than fission) once we get it to work, and I believe we will get it to work," Logan said.



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RE: ITER: "Reactor carries scientists' hopes"


Overall this is a really cheery article.  cry

Enthusiasm for fusion energy, however, is no longer shared by Congress, which agreed to fund the United States' contribution to ITER -- estimated at more than $1 billion by the time it's completed -- on one condition: that almost all other nonmilitary U.S. fusion research stop.
This was my main point all along, Congress has no real vision or will to succeed.  $1 billion is almost nothing in an endeavor this big.  Really I wounder if this is true strictly speaking.  I've seen some number that show U.S. fusion money is climbing. Hopefully we can even find some money of Dr. Bussards project.

If it fails, it will be another in a long series of fusion- research duds.Only this time, it would be such a colossal failure that it could kill all fusion research for good. What duds?  Are they going back to the 1960s?  Most of the major projects in recent decades have met their goals.  None of them were ever project to actually be a fuctioning power plant.  Since this is the ultimate energy source that humanity will ever tap (unless extracting zero point energy is possible) it may take a while to perfect.One thing that distrubs me as a U.S. citizen is that so much of this cutting edge science is going to Europe.  CERN will have the top high energy expirements and France gets the ITER.  The U.S. may well start to experience a reverse brain drain.  This is just because of the lack of vision of our leaders.If we fail I expect that China may well take it up in the future. 

-- Edited by John at 01:28, 2007-06-27

-- Edited by John at 01:41, 2007-06-27

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RE: ITER: "Reactor carries scientists' hopes"


I suspect that ITER will end up like the billion-dollar MFTF (Mirror Fusion Test Facility, including MFTF-B) -- sold for scrap metal, after people realised that it can never become a practical power plant, and the ensconced scientists could no longer keep the illusion going.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_Fusion_Test_Facility

From http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1980EnTR.....R...1 :

The tandem configuration, inspired by the success of the Tandem Mirror Experiment, is expected to represent an increase in confinement time from 10 msec to several seconds and in power from 1/30 to almost equal to breakeven over the original MFTF, while using essentially all of the equipment currently under construction.

PS. Just last week, the president of RSC Energia, Nikolai Sevastyanov, was fired by the company's board of directors.
So much for Sevastyanov's grandiose plans for a Russian Helium-3 mining outpost on the moon....

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There have been a lot of successful projects after that including TFTR, JET, JT-60.  I don't think the mirror devices would have worked out for power generation (unless you could get one that would do He3-D with a MHD generator).  Devices like this might be interesting for space propulsion.  I was a bit disappointed when it turned out that the spacecraft would about as heavy as an Aegis cruiser.

I think that ITER will go ahead just like the interational space space, i.e. because it would be an embarrassment to back out.  My big concern is that it could get screwed up by committee.  But the EU and Japan want fusion a lot more than the U.S. establishment does.  I think will make a major step ahead.  But the question is can we turn this into an economic power source. 

You shouldn't consider this to be a threat to your fission reactors.  Fission is going to be the practical nuclear techology for some time to come.... well unless Bussards IEC ideas would out!  I think that we could make a lot better time than we have but ITER is a good as it gets in the real world.

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Success would be a significant step forward in science's search for a permanent and nonpolluting energy source, even if it will take a few more decades of research and development before fusion energy can be proved economically and environmentally attractive for mass production.

Not decades. Centuries.

They say fusion reactors for mass production of commercial electricity will cost fortunes because of their monstrous size and complexity.

That is the fault of the tokamaks, not fusion in general.

Enthusiasm for fusion energy, however, is no longer shared by Congress, which agreed to fund the United States' contribution to ITER -- estimated at more than $1 billion by the time it's completed -- on one condition: that almost all other nonmilitary U.S. fusion research stop.

Somehow, I'm not surprised. The USA is not interested in developing true alternative energy sources, regardless what they preach. Sure, shiny solar panels and slick wind farms are ago, along with hydrogen-cells, but none of these are true solutions.

Overall this is a really cheery article.

Fusion is like that. Overwhelming pessimism with long-sheltered hopes and dreams.

PS. Just last week, the president of RSC Energia, Nikolai Sevastyanov, was fired by the company's board of directors.
So much for Sevastyanov's grandiose plans for a Russian Helium-3 mining outpost on the moon....


Lol. Just lol.

I was a bit disappointed when it turned out that the spacecraft would about as heavy as an Aegis cruiser.

If you consider that disappointing, look up how much a tokamak would mass.

I think that ITER will go ahead just like the interational space space, i.e. because it would be an embarrassment to back out.

My good sir, you are more naive then I am. From my understanding of the general public, they wouldn't care less.

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I hope ITER is successful--the world needs the energy sources that fusion could provide. However, 60 years of active plasma based fusion research seems to indicate a probable failure. But on the other hand, failure is intrinsic to any 'honest' research--without 'honest' failure, progress cannot be made. But is the optimism for this Tokamak real--do people genuinely feel we are on the verge of getting this thing to work--or is it, as has been suggested, a 'make work' project for plasma physicists? I don't believe the 'make work'--assertion is entirely fair, but on the other hand, I personally have been dissapointed by the many times when thermonuclear fusion was announced to be on the 'verge' or technological reality. We need the energy source now, and if fusion cannot provide it now, then we'd better start investing in a "Plan B!"

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ITER: "Reactor carries scientists' hopes"


That would be fission breeder reactors.

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RE: ITER: "Reactor carries scientists' hopes"


Andrew wrote:

That would be fission breeder reactors.



I think we finally founds something that on which we agree.  It does seem that it may well be sometime before we have fusion reactors as a practical energy source.  It would be wise to consider fission breeders and reprocessing as a souce for fission fuel in the even that fusion isn't ready in a timely manner. 

I think there is a little too much of the fission vs fusion thing going on here.  Both are forms of nuclear energy.


However, 60 years of active plasma based fusion research seems to indicate a probable failure.


What is failure in this case?  JT-60 is already at Q>1 and about half-minute confinment.  Compare that to where we were 30 years ago.  If ITER is has just a small improvement and we will be in the range of engineering breakeven, i.e. Q of about 10.  Then we will be getting to the details which are more likley to be the real make or break issues.  I have a hunch that economics is going to be the real hurdle, i.e. we will be able to build an energy producing fusion reactor but what if electricity from it costs 5 to 10 time the cost of producing the same amount by a fission reactor or a coal burning plant? 



-- Edited by John at 15:51, 2007-07-04

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RE: ITER: "Reactor carries scientists' hopes"


The economics of the reactor is also dependent upon the 'recirculating' power. As a proportion of power output, fusion reactors will have much larger recirculating powers than fission power plants. The recirculating power is the power needed to run the plant--all the coolant pumps, condensate pumps, feedwater heaters, pressurizers, etc. In a fusion reactor add to that the power consumed by plasma heating, and cryogenic coolant reliquifiers. This is a non-trivial amount of power.

The recirculating power, when it is not small, is the most important driving parameter of a power plant design, because this parameter will dictate the size of the plant (and total power output needed) to meet the desired power production (the saleable energy product.) In the case of a an automotive engine, all of the accessories together (alternator, oil pump, coolant pump, fuel injection, and airconditioning( may consume 10-15% of the total engine power output. This is the recirculating power...

In a 1000 MWe coal fired power plant, the recirculating power may be as high as 25-75 MWe depending upon the exact combination of pumps, blowers, etc. A 'small' 110 MWe natural gas fired PG&E power plant a few miles away from my house consumes about 2x4MWe just to run two large 'downdraft' stack gas blowers to pull the combustion gasses through the boilers and scrubbers before pushing them up the stacks. A large (1000MWe) nuclear fission plant may consume 25MWe just for the primary coolant pumps. How much would a fusion plant consume? I don't know, but plasma heaters alone will consume perhaps a hundred megawatts of power, and the cryogenic system would probably get another few tens of megawatts...

If the power consumed is more than 50% of the entire generated electric power, this necessitates that for a given desired "Marketable Power Production" the entire power plant must be more than twice as large as it would otherwise be...when that recirculating power gets closer to 90% this means that a power plant of given 'sellable output power" must be ten times larger. Or to put it on a different slant, with a recirculating power of 90% a power station sized to approach 1000 MWe total production will infact only market 100MWe--that is not economical at all...

Engineering Breakeven is a big milestone, but economic breakeven won't occur until the power generated is more than 4-5 times that consumed by the entire process...

We've got a ways to go yet...



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Thing is that lithium is a lot cheaper than uranium so from an economics point of view we can has a lot of the raw energy be used to just run the plant.  I don't think that "10k" needs to be defensive about his career future here!  To some degree we could speed up this process but fusion is turning out to be a more like the development of flying machines will fission was simple once we had the basics. 

Also we are going to learn a lot about plasma physics and the effects of an intense neutron environment on materials.  Fusion is worth it because it is the ultimate energy source given known physics (and the lack of nearby blackholes).

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GoogleNaut wrote:
Engineering Breakeven is a big milestone, but economic breakeven won't occur until the power generated is more than 4-5 times that consumed by the entire process...

We've got a ways to go yet...

Indeed !
....and add to that the likelyhood that Tokamak-type plants will have a short useful life, due to materials degradation caused by the intense neutron flux and the great temperature range in various parts of the machine.
By contrast, the latest generation of fission plants are being designed for 60-year lifetimes -- for economic reasons, of course.

PS. I still haven't heard of any company proposing to build fission reactors moderated by cryogenic fluid -- much as it would be desirable from the physics point of view biggrin

.



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John wrote:

Thing is that lithium is a lot cheaper than uranium so from an economics point of view we can has a lot of the raw energy be used to just run the plant.





Fuel costs for a fusion plant are almost trivial compared to the operating costs of the plant as a whole. The real operating costs will be the materials initially needed to build the plant; the time-cost of money needed to pay back the principle on the loan to build the plant; the payroll needed to take care of the crew needed to build, maintain, and then operate the plant; the costs associated with maintenance of the plant--which will be intrinsically higher than fission reactors for the reasons mentioned earlier. There are many levels of complexity for such a large industrial project--not just the engineering complexity, but basically the bigger the plant, the more complexity that it has overall, the higher the initial cost to build the plant, and the higher the maintenance costs will be. Ironically, even though the fuel is cheap, even if the fuel was free you would not save enough to make up the difference from all of the other costly things...this is why the recirculating power is an important design driver. A TeraWatt monster power plant that produced a net of 1 GW of power would not make any sense whatsoever, simply because it will be so big and complex at this point, that even with a 100% operating subsidy, there would be no way the plant could pay for its own maintenance. This is an exageration, but as far as fusion is concerned it isn't by much: currently the very best fusion performers have about 70-90% recirculating powers--on a good day--just barely engineering breakeven. And those same experiments cannot sustain those levels of performance.

And I don't mean to shoot down fusion--that is not my intention. I just want people to realize that thermonuclear fusion might not be the holy grail of industry that it was first sold to the public as. No one wants them to succeed more than I, but we've got to have a power source that can do the job. And in order for it to work for society the plant must be economically viable.






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ITER: "Reactor carries scientists' hopes"


I think we finally founds something that on which we agree. It does seem that it may well be sometime before we have fusion reactors as a practical energy source. It would be wise to consider fission breeders and reprocessing as a souce for fission fuel in the even that fusion isn't ready in a timely manner.


The only thing I think we disagree on what fusion scheme should be pursued.
I think that fission will be in use for a long time, even when aneutronic fusion is practical enough to strap on a rocket.
The reason to this is scale: fission may not be good at generating electric power directly, but it is a very good heat generator. They can also be smaller, and can produce power at a scale where fusion doesn't. Also, fission is much simpler from various standpoints, thus more reliable.

What is failure in this case?

The failures he is referring to is that allot of knowledge about plasmas come from discovering more and more instabilities and complications.

JT-60 is already at Q>1 and about half-minute confinment.

It archived that in theory, not practice. Big difference.

Compare that to where we were 30 years ago.

"Breakeven is just a few years away, if you give me the right amount of money." is the attitude. We made some strides, but nowhere near practical fusion.

f ITER is has just a small improvement and we will be in the range of engineering breakeven, i.e. Q of about 10.

A small improvement? Are you kidding me? That thing will be bigger then my house, and I live in a flat.

Also, even some of the people working on the thing are pessimistic about results.

I have a hunch that economics is going to be the real hurdle, i.e. we will be able to build an energy producing fusion reactor but what if electricity from it costs 5 to 10 time the cost of producing the same amount by a fission reactor or a coal burning plant?

Tokamaks still need a century to get even remotely economic. I don't think I'll live that long.

Thing is that lithium is a lot cheaper than uranium so from an economics point of view we can has a lot of the raw energy be used to just run the plant.

Fuels cost savings will be trivial versus the loss given by all the equipment needed to run the fusion plant.

Not to mention superconducters. Fission power plants don't need superconducters. And cryogenic cooling with it.

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RE: ITER: "Reactor carries scientists' hopes"


Also, even some of the people working on the thing are pessimistic about results.
Isn't that a surprise.  There are pessimists everywhere...a few on this board!

What is failure in this case?
I see know reason given the past success that we should expect anything less than Q > 5 and much improve confinment times.  Is that a failure?  What are actual goal anyway.  I see mainly a strong tendency here to discount all of the great achievements in magnetic fusion reseach and give way to much weight to every speculative IEC concepts. 

"Breakeven is just a few years away, if you give me the right amount of money." 
The trouble is that they didn't give enough money.  With ITER we are starting to see the level of financial support need for success.


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PS. I still haven't heard of any company proposing to build fission reactors moderated by cryogenic fluid -- much as it would be desirable from the physics point of view biggrin

You mean like a CANDU but with pure liquid deuterium instead of heavy water!

THAT would be fun!!  (Puts the cryogenic issue of tokomaks in perspective somewhat)

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The trouble is that they didn't give enough money.

What the hell do you call the 16 billion dollar funding?

You mean like a CANDU but with pure liquid deuterium instead of heavy water!

I wasn't aware that CANDU was cryogenic.


-- Edited by Andrew at 18:43, 2007-07-06

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I wasn't aware that CANDU was cryogenic.

It isnt! (heavy water exists quite comfortably at room temperature) but from my limited knowledge of such things, I would immagine that liquid deuterium would make a pretty damn good moderator! It is just that building a practicle power reactor using a cryogenic moderator would require, erm, "Interesting" engineering!

biggrin

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What the hell do you call the 16 billion dollar funding?
There wasn't anything like that back in the 1980s.  Funding peaked in the early 1980s and gradually trailed off until the big cut in the mid-1990s.  It is only with ITER that there has been a project with that level of funding and that is only getting underway.  The funding should have been doubled or tripled in the mid-90s and we would already have the basic results that are now a decade away.


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Dusty wrote:
It is just that building a practicle power reactor using a cryogenic moderator would require, erm, "Interesting" engineering!

biggrin

Dusty -- I guess you really mean "ITER-type engineering" ? .....though with the hot parts (fuel pellets) being only at about a thousand degrees, instead of a hundred million degrees.
                                           idea

.



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I think you guys are way overplaying the cyrogenic thing with ITER.  That isn't really the problem.  The who idea is to keep the plasma away from the walls of the torus.  With D-T 80% of the energy will be in the form of neutrons most of which will just pass through the walls.  The 20% that is in charges particles will be largely captured by the magnetics fields and used heat the plasma.  So mostly it is just the EM radiations that heats the walls.   Sure energy will be need to operate the cooling system but that has been a long known problem. 

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John wrote: The who idea is to keep the plasma away from the walls of the torus.  With D-T 80% of the energy will be in the form of neutrons most of which will just pass through the walls.  The 20% that is in charges particles will be largely captured by the magnetics fields and used heat the plasma.  So mostly it is just the EM radiations that heats the walls.   Sure energy will be need to operate the cooling system but that has been a long known problem. 
Actually John, in the case of CANDU reactors, the situation is conceptually similar to the way you describe ITER: The heat from fission in the fuel pellets is captured by the pressurized coolant in the fuel channels, so that only neutrons and gamma radiation get into the surrounding, non-pressurized heavy water moderator, which must be cooled to remain below boiling.
This arrangement could in theory be modified to use liquid deuterium instead of heavy water, as Dusty says, which would likely lead to more efficient neutronics, and consequently a higher burn-up of the uranium fuel, before it must be discharged as "spent fuel".
But thermodynamically, the impact would be horrendous, since the energy required to extract ~80 megawatts of heat from a cryogenic fluid would likely require most of the electricity generated by the entire power plant.

And of course the big difference is that unlike the 80% neutron energy in the case of fusion, with 20% as charged particles, in the case of fission, the proportions are roughly the opposite -- with ~80% charged particles (the fission fragments, which depositing all their energy within the fuel pellets) and ~20% as fast neutrons, that exit the fuel pellets and dump their energy in both the cooland and the moderator outside the fuel channels.

Moreover, the fusion neutrons are about ten times more energetic than fission neutrons, so the damage to the various components of the machine is much much faster.
Those components are far more complex than the simple tubing inside fission reactors, requiring frequent replacement, at great cost.
A better appreciation of the damage caused by fast neutrons can be had by calculating the equivalent temperature corresponding to their energy: The conversion factor is 11,400 degrees Kelvin to the electron-volt (eV), so at ~14MeV, those fusion neutrons are at a toasty ~160 BILLION degrees -- considerably hotter than the charged plasma that stays in the Tokamak torus.

In the fission reactor, the main consequence is that the neutrons cause a fair bit of dissociation of the heavy water molecules, with hydrogen and oxygen gases forming slowly and entering the cover gas space above the moderator. Catalytic recombiners take care of that problem.




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ITER: "Reactor carries scientists' hopes"



I think you guys are way overplaying the cyrogenic thing with ITER. That isn't really the problem. The who idea is to keep the plasma away from the walls of the torus.


No, the idea is to contain plasma and pray to the nuclear physic gods that there are enough collisions in the plasma to make breakeven. The problem is that plasma is very erratic under these conditions, and the idea doesn't look as nice as it was 30 years ago.

And cyrogenic stuff is very,very expensive. The problem isn't ignorable or trivial, as you try to make it. It will stop tokamaks from ever being economic if not mayor bumb, and I'm willing to bet that it will stop it from ever making engineering breakeven.

With D-T 80% of the energy will be in the form of neutrons most of which will just pass through the walls.

I recall gamma rays acting that way, not neutrons. Neutrons are much larger and will hit anything, and since we are talking about very energetic neutrons, it will wreak havoc with anything it will hit.

So mostly it is just the EM radiations that heats the walls. Sure energy will be need to operate the cooling system but that has been a long known problem.

EM radiation and highly energetic neutrons. And the problem is still unsolved.

The funding should have been doubled or tripled in the mid-90s and we would already have the basic results that are now a decade away.

The same thing has been said way back in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Its not. ITER is a welfare program, it will end when all the people working on the thing will comfortably retire. The only reason why its funded because its of no treat to be economical or widely usable, and most importantly of all, its of no treat to oil and its a poker game to see whether it will work or not.

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RE: ITER: "Reactor carries scientists' hopes"


Some interesting figures can be found on the ITER web site -- see quotes below.

Summarising, ITER's fusion power during a nominal 400-second "burn" is 410 MWth (megawatts thermal).If this were converted to electricity in a (optimistically) 40% efficient thermodynamic conversion cycle, it would produce some 165 MWe (megawatts of electric power).

But this is only during the fusion burn pulse. The pulses will be some 1800 seconds apart, thus the capacity factor is at most 22%, meaning an average of 91MWth or 37MWe.

To achieve the fusion burn conditions in the torus -- cryo-cooling the magnets, etc. -- only about one megawatt of heat must be removed by the "Cryoplant" : 43kW from liquid Helim (LHe) and 1000kW from liquid nitrogen (LN2), plus a few smaller loads.

But the electricity required to remove this amount of heat by the Cryoplant is about 30 MWe -- in other words, about 30 times the electric power is needed to remove a unit of heat from LN2 + LHe cryogens.
(Note: in the earlier example of an LD-moderated CANDU, that would mean about 2400MWe of cooling power -- but the plant only produces about 700MWe, from some 2200MWth).

Of course ITER's Cryoplant is sized for an averaged cooling load, taking into account the short burn pulses between long pauses.
Any commercial fusion Tokamak would have far higher cooling requirements, if the fusion burns are near-continuous.
In addition to the Cryoplant, water cooling of various equipment and building ventilation bring the total steady power requirements to 125MWe -- some 3.4 times the potential 37MWe that ITER could generate from its 410MWth pulses.

But that's just the steady-state loads.Pulsed power for the magnets (the central solenoid, poloidal field, and correction coils) and the plasma heating system needs to be delivered in addition.
This graph shows that the heating power P during a fusion pulse is about 230MWe.
PQ.jpg
So total power required during a fusion burn is an absolute minimum of 125 + 230 = 355MWe.

Then there's all the beauty of operating procedures: For example, it takes a MONTH just to cool down to operating temperature (and just as much time to warm up to ambient, to avoid damaging thermal stresses).So each time you need to shut down for maintenance on components damaged by the fast neutron flux.....

 http://www.iter.org/power.htmITER requires a steady power of 125 MW during back-to-back nominal pulse operation, predominantly for cooling water, cryoplant, and buildings (HVAC). Pulsed power for the magnets (the central solenoid, poloidal field, and correction coils) and the plasma heating system needs to be delivered in addition. For the generic site this is assumed to be provided directly from the local electricity network, although requirements can be reduced for a particular site if necessary by purchasing extra energy storage. Typical requirements for active (P) and reactive (Q) power for the nominal pulse are shown below. The high level of reactive power means that a reactive power compensation system needs to be used. This system, composed of harmonic reactive power and high frequency filters, brings the reactive power level to 400 Mvar. Active power is limited to 500 MW peak with a peak derivative of 200 MW/s and maximum step changes of 60 MW. In the case of plasma disruptions the system is designed for the necessary rapid power shedding to achieve this.


http://www.iter.org/pdfs/PDD3-4.pdfTable
3.4.4-1 Steady-state Power Supply and Emergency Loads

System Connected loads Cryoplant & Cryodistribution 33.9 MWe
http://www.iter.org/cryo.htmCryoplant System Design Capacity Liquid He Plant 43 kW refrigeration + 0.17 kg/s liquefaction.Liquid Nitrogen Plant 1000 kW

From the ITER Technical Basis http://www.iter.org/pdfs/PDD3-2.pdf

The design point of the LHe plant is 43.2 kW of refrigeration plus 0.17 kg/s of liquefaction to satisfy the nominal plasma pulsing with 1,800 s plasma repetition time and 400 s burn at 100 % availability for plasma pulsing.The largest cryogenic user is the magnet system..... The heat load deposited in the magnet system includes both the static loads due to thermal radiation from 80K shields, and the thermal conduction through gravity supports, as well as the averaged value of the large pulsed heat loads of electromagnetic losses and nuclear heating. The electromagnetic losses and nuclear heating are intrinsically pulsed heat loads and the ITER cryogenic system is designed to smooth this pulsed heat load to enable steady state operation of the LHe plant.

3.2.1.3 80K He Loop and LN2 Subsystem

An 80K flow of compressed He is used for the active cooling of the 80K thermal shields of the ITER machine. For nominal operation, the He temperature at the inlet and outlet of the shields is 80K and 100K respectively. Liquid nitrogen is used for pre-cooling He to 80K for the thermal shields.One of the most challenging requirements for the LHe plant is the removal of large, pulsed heat loads deposited in the magnet system, because conventional LHe plant operation can become unstable above a certain (small) level of heat load fluctuation.For smoothing the pulsed heat load, a special cooling procedure has been developed.

3.2.3.2 Cool-Down of the ITER Machine from 300K to 4.5K

The cool-down scenario of the ITER machine is mainly determined by cool-down of the magnet system. The cool-down is subdivided in two stages, namely from 300K to 80K and from 80K to 4.5K. During the first cool-down stage, the inlet He temperature is gradually decreased at a rate of 0.4 - 0.5K per hour. This gradual cool-down is required to limit mechanical stresses in the magnet system to acceptable values. The gradual cool-down is provided by compressed He flow from the LHe plant.



-- Edited by 10kBq Jaro at 21:55, 2007-07-07

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RE: ITER: "Reactor carries scientists' hopes"


Excellent presentation 10kBq Jaro. Now I see the problem and just as I thought it wasn't that you could "do it" but it is just to costly in energy. The cryo pulls us below engineering breakeven. The pulsed operation is a real killer too. If we had continous operation we could save that 235 MWe. And as you point out the demand on the cooling system would be more. They won't be generation any electric power with the ITER energy of course. I suppose the energy extracted with the lithium system and it's cooling is seperate from these numbers? If not then this isn't quite as bad as it would look at first glance. I would how all of these numbers would scale as this system is about 1/3 the power that was originally proposed.

This is clearly an experiment and but it will be very interesting to get some real data on the high energy neutron flux effects and I'm at bit concerned about the process by which we seperate the tritium and helium from the lithium while it serves it thermodynamic duties as well.

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John wrote:
I suppose the energy extracted with the lithium system and it's cooling is seperate from these numbers? If not then this isn't quite as bad as it would look at first glance. it thermodynamic duties as well.

The energy extracted with the lithium system and it's cooling is actually where most of that 410MWth from the fusion burn goes -- FORTUNATELY, because otherwise it would also end up in the LHe & LN2.
In fact I was surprised how effectively the ITER design manages to intercept the heat from the plasma in the blanket -- considering that its delivered mostly by highly-penetrating fast neutrons.
On the enormous scale of the ITER machine, a blanket several feet thick barely shows up on a cross-sectional diagram -- but is plenty thick to take most of the juice out of the fast neutrons... 
I did notice that the cryostat does pick up quite a bit of heat from the magnet & vacuum vessel support structures, which pass through the cryostat.

One thing I'm unsure about though, is WHICH BLANKET type they used in these heat transport calculations -- because there will in fact be a variety of different blanket types installed around the torus vacuum vessel, in interchangeable modules, for testing purposes.

From what little I did find on this topic, it appears that at least initially the blanket will be a solid material, with water cooling channels to remove the heat (to avoid it being transfered to the cryostat).

No liquid lithium blanket modules will be used, except perhaps towards the end of the ITER project.

>>>>>> Note however, that ITER's water-cooled blanket will be chilled to the lowest possible temperature (river water) -- again, to minimize heat transfer to the cryostat.
For a commercial plant, this will NOT be possible, since electric power generation by way of any type of thermodynamic cycle requires the highest possible temperature, for best efficiency.
So the blanket will be very hot -- possibly around 700 C if liquid lithium is used.
Thus a SECONDARY blanket will be required to separate the primary one from the cryostat, along with loads of insulation.

One of the ITER documents says that later on in the project, one of the blanket modules may be a type using pressurised water coolant at a high temperature -- just so they can run it through a small turbogenerator, and claim that this will be the "first electricity generated by a fusion reactor" hmm

-- Edited by 10kBq Jaro at 02:34, 2007-07-08

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ITER: "Reactor carries scientists' hopes"


And now John, you may see why I am not optimistic about the project.

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It doesn't look like fusion is going to happen all that soon.  ITER has basically evolved into a giant size experiment.  On the other hand it will provide a lot of experience that will be useful in most future attempt at fusion.  For example with all of the talk about the fast neutron environment this will give us some real experience with that.  It will also be interesting to we if the stated confinment goals can be met. 

Like the International Space Station when you have an agreement to support such a project it tends to go ahead.  This train has left the station.  I basically see it as a good thing to provide some stability for scientist and engineers working in this field.  Also, there is a use for a successful Q<1 fusion reactor but we don't want to trumpet that too loudly just yet. 

This now fall into the long term research category unless some new containment approach can be developed.

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John wrote:
This now fall into the long term research category unless some new containment approach can be developed.

There is no new containment approach.
But theory doesn't exclude the possibility of eventually developing superconductors that can take temperatures of several hundred C.
Of course the other (also remote) possibility is that society & politics will eventually advance to the point where PACER-type fusion is accepted as the practical option that it really is....



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PACER-type fusion


Is that the idea about setting off nuclear bombs to produce energy?


But theory doesn't exclude the possibility of eventually developing superconductors that can take temperatures of several hundred C.

So if that happens we might make a success of the tokamaks yet. But I would think just getting above the LHe level would do a lot of good.

After all this is getting very close. The main issue is the intervals between pulses if we could get to continuous or near continuous operation a lot see get very close because we don't have spend the large about of engergy to do the start up. While the energy demands are great for cooling how will they scale with continuous operation? Is it really linear? Certainly a lot of the cooling demand is just do to the 300 K background temperature. If we can get some improvement on superconductors say only requiring liquid Nitrogen temperate so could be where we need to be.

-- Edited by John at 18:20, 2007-07-08

-- Edited by John at 18:21, 2007-07-08

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RE: ITER: "Reactor carries scientists' hopes"


John wrote:

PACER-type fusion


Is that the idea about setting off nuclear bombs to produce energy?


Indeed it is.

John wrote:
But I would think just getting above the LHe level would do a lot of good.

After all this is getting very close.
It would "do a lot of good" as far as having a much cheaper experimental machine like ITER -- not much good as far as getting anywhere near an economical commercial plant that doesn't require 10,000 PhD's to run it.

It is "getting very close" to some sort of physics break-even -- not anywhere close to a practical power plant.




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