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NUKE ROCKY44


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Seniors take on interstellar space travel
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I'm a bit surprised at the level of interest shown by the public in particular by seniors when I talk with them about space exploration.

Interest in space peaks roughly at news reports of new discoveries related to clues that our solar system and beyond contain water-ice and this material was once thought of as non-existent. I guess they were taught back in their day that space was sterile and devoid of anything resembling earth like elements and only contained lifeless rock vacant to any activity and dynamic. It's only recently in the last decade or two that our solar system with its network of planets, moons, comets and asteroids etc. make-up is still in a state of flux. It is now brought into focus revealing hints that in fact there is an active dynamic component to outer space. I preface my remarks with living sentient organisms that can exist and thrive under extraordinary circumstances here on earth.
You can't help by drawing the conclusion that planet earth is not peculiar and not the only place to harbor life as we know it. Only recently has the science of astronomy been able to confirm that some stars do in fact contain exoplanets that orbit certain stars and some of these exoplanets might resemble similar earth like environments although these stellar systems might be beyond 20 or 50 light years or more from earth.
I suggested to this group of interested seniors that our neighboring stellar system is only 4.5 light years heading due south from our celestial sphere a straight shot heading toward the brightest starlight in the night sky and the second in light intensity other than the sun. More than half the astronomers and astrophysics people describe Alpha Centauri with its 3 stars (Alpha,Beta,'C' Proxima) as a gigantic mystery a so called, "blind spot" that might yet harbor a dynamic resembling our own planet.
So obviously, the next question is, what would it take to get to this stellar neighbor?
I suggested that the real possibility exists to transport a spacecraft, but not with present day space propulsion. It would need nuclear power to start with followed by advances in fusion and antimatter technology and if after taking these 'baby steps' in interstellar propulsion as a human race find that 'negative energy' a holy grail of energy were available for use in space propulsion then there might be a chance that we may send missions that may take four years or less in time and space.
I suggested to them the only way to achieve the feat of traversing trillions of km in nano seconds is to pick up interstellar travel speed in order to bridge time and space. We learn as a species, as we use new methods of space propulsion since I'm a firm believer in newer energy sources will not reveal themselves 'for free', you have to expend money and energy to get to use these future forms of energy practically.

To seniors this philosophy is no different than what they are use to and have always known.
Hard work that needs to begin in earnest if we're ever going to access the rest of our galaxy.


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Bruce Behrhorst
10kBq Jaro


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I think that there is an extremely high premium on launching massive objects to near-light-speed, for interstellar missions.
Ergo, mass needs to be drastically minimized.

I have high (though perhaps naive) hopes for nanotechnology.

As outlined by Eric Drexler, microscopic probes could be launched relatively easily to extreme velocities using E-M accelerators.

Some type of clever re-configuration upon arival at the destination system might achieve sufficient deceleration for surviving atmospheric entry, followed by robotic replication to macroscopic size, for establishing an observation post with transmitter for relaying data home to earth.

Alternatively, high-resolution remote observation could be achieved with a sufficiently long interferomeric base line, using technology being currently developed for projects such as ESA's Darwin space telescope.

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NUKE ROCKY44


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True-launching large objects to near c or at c speed is tough especially when you violate the speed of c rules with regard to Galilean Space-Time vs Minkowski Space-Time. If I may digress a bit just to include the 15 billion year old big bang and its expansion so far this is the only evidence we have that massive warping energies have or are being subjected to enormous changes in the universe. Contrary to the rule in GTR and special TR. There is still a lot that needs to be explained and proven with for example, Alcubierre's bubble we still have no firm explanation into dark energy or dark matter or the antigravity effect on the edge of the universe and its after glow effects and just what it left behind including folds in space time. Where is the instrumentation being launched that may or may not show anomalies? Causality and quantum inequality the energy requirements may be absurdly gigantic, e.g. the mass-energy content of a star might be required to transport a small spaceship across the Milky Way galaxy. Could this be true?? confused

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Bruce Behrhorst
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...well, some of the implications from Miguel Alcubierre's warp-metric suggest that some stellar mass level drive fields might be necessary. But this is so far from a real application or even a testable principle that I am hopeful, yet hesitant about it...

I have personally met K. Eric Drexler--and he is a very interesting person. [A very 'oblique' sense of humor too--we actually talked about barbequing with diamond logs!] Years ago, I attended one of the Foresight Institute membership meetings in Palo Alto, and talked about many things with that group--very fun, stuff indeed. I particularly like the beauty of the molecular bearing that was displayed on their website--not sure if it is practical, but it was bery aesthetically pleasing engineering wise!

Micro spaceprobes with molecular scale processors: I suppose it is possible--one of the things that Charles Moore (inventor of Forth programming language, not Gordon Moore the co-founder of Intel) told me about was that if a processor could be small enough, then individual processing cells and ciruits would start to be less affected by cosmic ray hits. If a computer were so constructed, then it would be possible to have individual cells vote--the result would be a much more error tolerant computer not as prone to transient electrical upsets caused by cosmic ray hits. Of course, over time, radiation damage would still take a toll. Of course if swarms of nanobots were still on the 'chip' repairs and even upgrades may be possible. So--who know? I think nanotechnology has a potentially very optimistic future--if we as humanity don't blow it!



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Andrew


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I don't have high hopes of nanotechnology allowing microscopic probes, and from a certain standpoint its ridiculous. The thing couldn't withstand cosmic radiation, or perhaps even the high temperatures given by the sun. The more smaller something is, the more sensitive it is, and nanotechnology is no exception. They might be great for smaller yet still high performance computers, but as space probes themselves, I don't think so.

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NUKE ROCKY44


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Its interesting but I get the feeling from last few posts that say, a special laser beam containing nano particles suspended within the confines of the laser medium could exhibit non-classical quantum tunneling in space were able to reach distant light/data to record and send back information without violating classical rules. Meaning the length of the beam would have bands(zones) where data would travel a variable c speed (slow, at c speed, FTL) all governed (gated) by computerized nano particles to insure data was not distorded or corrupted by extranous energies like for example cosmic rays? Is there anyone doing work on something similar to this concept, I seem to remember some article to this effect, but it escapes me at the moment-anybody know more info on this?  



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Bruce Behrhorst
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Bruce,
I think what you are referring to is called "Quantum Entangled States." Einstein absolutely abhorred quantum mechanics because it allowed these "entangled states" to happen--infact, Einstein specifically poopood the whole thing calling it "spooky action at a distance."

Fortunately for us Quantum Mechanics seems to be a pretty good theory, and so entangled states appears to be real.

Basically, if you set up a Michaelson-Morley Interferometer and split a single laser beam so that equal intensities of the beam can pass one way or the other around the interferometer--you have the basics necessary to entangle photons with one another. As long as you can't know which path a particular photon has taken around the track, quantum mechanically speaking, it looks like the photon has simultaneously taken both. Correlating individual photons with a particular path collapses an 'uncertainty' function which then allows the photon to appear to have transmitted information faster than light. However, from what I understand, it is impossible to make this correlation until you compare both data sets (one for each path, to determine which photons went where.) And to do that, you have to physically transmit data light-speed or less to compare the two data sets. So in effect, you can transmit correlations faster-than-light, but they don't mean anything until you get the rest of the data there which must come at light-speed or less. So you have, in effect, a faster than light transmitter that only transmits noise...until you get the rest of the information you need to decode it.

Bummer...

Still, it's highly interesting physics...


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10kBq Jaro


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GoogleNaut wrote:

So you have, in effect, a faster than light transmitter that only transmits noise...until you get the rest of the information you need to decode it.

Boy, that one sure made me laugh !!!


Thanks for the debunking, Ty ! ...much appreciated !

.



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NUKE ROCKY44


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Thanks Ty you've ID "Quantum Entangled States". I was hoping our 'spooky' nano particulates would decode light/data on the trip back. I think I may have an abstract on the issue. I'll look into it this weekend. It's a bit over my head but you're right it does make for interesting physics phenomena. 

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Bruce Behrhorst
John


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It sort of ironic that we discovered this quantum entaglement as a result of Einstein's skepticism.  Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen wrote a paper in 1935 the posed the idea as an problem in quantum theory.  A different version of the EPR paradox was proposed by an Irish phyicist in the early 1960s that was finally put to experimental test in the 1980s it turned out that quantum theory was verified and the supposed paradox was established as a really phenomena.

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john fraz


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RE: interstellar space travel
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10kBq Jaro wrote:

I think that there is an extremely high premium on launching massive objects to near-light-speed, for interstellar missions.
Ergo, mass needs to be drastically minimized.


Was wandering through looking for something and this old one caught my eye.

Microscopic probes are interesting, and like Forward's Starwisp, can let us thoroughly map the neighborhood, but they're not really what's interesting.


If energy costs go up with launching massive objects close to C, then we just need to grow our capabilities so we can launch bloody big payloads with tremendous energies.

And forget about rockets. This is a job for the payload pushers, throwers, etc. Leave the energy at home, and do the work of pushing the payload closer to C with supermassive installations that don't move.

If it takes another few hundred million square km of solar collector to drive the payload another decimal point closer, then lets build a huge mirror.

Anything better for a K=2 civilization to be doing?

Within a few thousand years, we could be spread all across this solar system, and on to others. When you've got people in multiple neighboring star systems, they can more easily do things like this. The more time goes on, the more power they'll be able to throw into it. Lasers or solar reflectors that could boil the facing hemisphere of a moon, or scorch a region of a planet from half a light year away will push payloads. The closer to C, the less time spent in transit, and if there's somebody with compatible systems at the other end, then the energy isn't really spent... they receive the payload and in slowing it down, they gain the energy.

It's the only natural growth of a system, given the problems involved.



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"A devotee of Truth may not do anything in deference to convention. He must always hold himself open to correction, and whenever he discovers himself to be wrong he must confess it at all costs and atone for it." Monhandas K. Gandhi
GoogleNaut


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RE: Seniors take on interstellar space travel
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There is one thing we can do now (relatively soon that is) is building large space based astronomical observatories. A large array of telescopes, optically and electronically linked together on the far side of the moon, could in effect create the equivalent of an optical mirror hundreds or even thousands of kilometers across. Such an array, made up of dozens or even hundreds of huge 50m or 100m segmented optical mirrors, we could image individual continents on terrestrial type planets orbiting stars within a few tens of ligh-years...

By looking at absorbtion spectra from reflected light we could detect with almost 100% certainty whether life exists on such a planet, based upon likey chemical signatures of typical phototrophs--chlorophyll has a unique absorption spectral signature. We could characterize much of the bulk chemistry in the atmosphere and on the surface and this would tell us a great deal about whether such life would be compatible with ours...

If we have a definate target to aim for, then a lot of the uncertainties associated with an interstellar mission would go away. Using future power systems (perhaps deuterium/tritium inertial confinement pulse detonation engines...) it becomes fairly straightforward to project mission delta-v requirements, staging strategies, etc. A flyby mission could concievably be put together...

I think it is better, especially if we are to send people, to identify prelimary targets of promise: a large optical array can give us this before we try to personally bridge the gulf that is interstellar space...

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