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Post Info TOPIC: Oil is running out!
Philipum

Date:
Oil is running out!


A good point against CO2 emmissions: soon there won't be any oil to burn anymore! Studies from the university of Uppsala (Sweden) show that we might even have reached the maximum of oil production. Have a look to the ASPO site:

www.peakoil.net

If these guys are right (they admit large uncertainties in their evaluation because the data are often either inaccessible or falsified), from now on or at least within a few years, unless we miracously find new (gigantic) oil fields, oil prodoction will fatally decrease. As the cunsuption is on its way up, imagine how dramatically the oil price will increase and what it means for the world economy! A disaster, and a huge push for nuclear industry!

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GoogleNaut

Date:

Oil won't 'run out' but production will taper off until it no longer satisfies demand (which can be argued is the case, now.) This is the origin of the classic bell shaped curve (called a Gaussian Distribution) which is known as Hubbert's Peak [oil production.] This is the time at which maximum oil production passes. After the peak--production never again rises as high. As production tapers off, the price of oil will continue to rise until it is so expensive that virtually everyone cannot afford to buy it.

The real danger is in how fast it tapers off, and how much economic upheavel will be caused by 'demand destruction.' I personally fear that eventually a transportation infrastructure failure (no more planes, trains, and automobiles) will result in economic catastrophe.

This is why we need to find viable alternatives to petroleum based fuels--before rising energy costs seriously harm the economy. Nuclear technology is one of the only contenders able to satisfy future demand for industrial and transportation energy. But we must start now.

An excellent forum for the discussion of Petroleum Investment related issues is Downstream Ventures at:

http://p088.ezboard.com/bdownstreamventures

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10kBq jaro

Date:

Oil production sources have varied over the last couple of centuries -- first (?) it was obtained from whales, then from the ground. When Nazi Germany faced an oil shortage during WWII, due to sanctions by the allied nations, they produced synthetic oil from coal. When OPEC oil runs out (or tapers off), we will produce oil from tar sands, shale and coal. More expensive, but good for a couple hundred more years..... Assuming nanotechnology develops by that time (probably a pessimistic assessment), there is little in the chemical domain which will not be feasible, given sufficient sources of input energy.

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GoogleNaut

Date:
Given energy, anything is possible...


....and there is the Crux of it.

Given sufficient energy sources, it is possible to create synthetic petroleum from any source of carbon: limestone, chalk, the air (carbon dioxide gas in the air,) etc.

The question is one of efficiency, and magnitude of alternative energy sources. It is far easier to create synthetic petroleum from natural gas than from limestone or CO2 because the carbon is already reduced. Carbon from coal is similarly reduced--and to a lesser extent in biomass (carbon is usually in the form of carbohydrates such as cellulose and sugars in plant matter.) To replace the current demand for petroleum still requires something like 8 billion tons per year of carbon. Reducing that from limestone is out of the question when the likely source of energy (electricity or process heat) is fossil petroleum. Only nuclear power offers the capability to give us the needed power to achieve this level of replacement--although I would estimate that such an energy switchover might require atleast two orders of magnitude more generating capacity than we currently possess in nuclear power. This is a rather significant expansion of our current energy consumption--but that's pretty much what it would take to use nuclear power as a prime mover in a totally synthetic petroleum economy. Much better alternatives I am sure could be found that don't rely so heavily on synthetic petroleum.



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Philipum

Date:
No time for new technologies!


The crisis is coming now!!!

Don't buy a new car! Sell your car! Buy a horse, a cow, and good clothes instead! Find a new home near to the food production! Make sugar reserves! EVERYTHING is coming to be expensive!

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Dusty

Date:
RE: Oil is running out!


Actually oil has been used for longer than a few centuries. throughout the middle east wells of "Naft safeed" (Sp???) occuur where almost clear petrolium seeps to the surface and forms small pools. this has been used as lamp oil for millenia and quite possibly in the occasional conjuring trick!


(Remember your bible stories? Abrahams competition with the priests of Baal involving a sacrifice on the mountain? Not only was the alter built on the top of a mountain where lightning strikes were likly, he also helped it allong by pouring "Water" all over it as well!! )


However, back to googlenauts comment.


I predicted some years ago, as a bit of a joke initially, but I suspect I am correct that;


 


a)     We will still be producing oil in 500 years time,


b)     It will not sustain much above 100$/Bl


 


The reasoning for this is that, for a), there are fields in the middle east now that have 500 year predicted life at current extraction rates and for b), if oil SUSTAINS above 100$/Bl then other alternatives will be exploited


 


However, To mention economics it to imply that mere money will somehow overcome declining oil production. It is not so simple and it wont! 


 


Not many people realise that a well goes “dry” when as little as 20% of the oil has been extracted. Its just that you get to the point that it takes more energy to extract the oil than the extracted oil contains.


 


Many small oil wells are already operating beyond this break even point becase the oil they produce is more vauable as a fuel than the electricity used to operate the pumps


 


The Canadian tar sands are close to this energy neutral category. It may still be worthwhile extracting “unprofitable” petroleum (from an energy POV) long into the future if an abundant alternative, non-fossil source of energy is available to pay for it (Nuclear??) but as a SOURSE of energy, petroleum’s days are definitely numbered.


It is no surprise to me that, at least some, of the world’s big oil and gas producers are pursuing nuclear programmes. It is not about procuring WMD’s it is, in the short term, a way of maximising their hydrocarbon resources for export, in the long term, possibly for providing the energy to extract "Unprofitable" oil or even ,in the longer term, who knows. Perhaps while we have been sitting on our hands worrieng about nuclear waste disposal the Arab states will have built thousands of reactors producing hydrogen to manufacture synthetic liquid fuel with which to replace declining oil production Thus maintaining their monopoly of energy supply.


 


I would if I were them!

The big problem as I see it though is that western government analysts seem to be asuuming that the end of the oil age either wont happen at all (Tar sand argument) or at worst will result from a slow steady decline in production that the "Market" will be able to adapt to. Unfortunatly
I suspect that The trigger for the end of the oil age will be more likely to be a sudden political crisis rather than a steady, predictable decline in output with a corresponding steady, predictable rise in price. A sudden drop in output as small as 5% could have catastrophic effects that would be hard to cope with.


 


Immagine a 1973 oil crisis but one where the lights never come back on again, where the gas stations are closed for ever (Unless you are one of the privalaged few!)


 


As Philpum just said, is it happening now? Who knows! The problem is that by the time we are sure it will be too late to do anything about it. An economic enviroment similar to the 73 oil crisis with its rolling power cuts, fuel shortages and (in the UK anyway) the notorious 3 day week (there wasnt enough energy to work a 5 day one!) is not a good enviroment for developing and deploying a vast nuclear/chemical programme!


 



 


Dusty


 


 



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GoogleNaut

Date:

Many fine points here.

I would add that a really good indicator of an imminent collapse would come with a sudden and general price spike in many staple foods. The reason for this is that as the price of fuels rise, the cost of harvesting and tranpsorting produce from the fields to the processing plant will increase. This cost is added again because of the rising energy costs of processing and packaging the food has risen. It is added yet again for tranpsortation from the factory to the store. So an energy price increase gets added to the consumers four or five times--and in different ways. It is for this reason that energy costs are multiplicative to consumers.

Eventually the costs can become so high that basic commodities and consumables are no longer affordable. When no one can afford to buy groceries without major sacrifice (do I buy food or do a drive this week?) then a general economic failure is imminent.

I would also add that just moving to the country and buying a horse will not solve your problems either. Just moving to a low population density area does not guarantee that that area will remain low population density. If a general infrastructure failure were to happen, tens of thousands of starving individuals will move to those very same "food production areas" and consume everything like locusts.

It may sound too unduly alarmist--but think about what would happen in a major city like New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, or Seattle when there were no grocery stores to buy food; no garbage trucks to pick up trash; when no police, fire or ambulance come when someone calls. A general infrastructure failure is bad news, and our society is so totally dependent on oil to keep things running. This is why I am so adamant about finding some kind of energy alternative to petroleum. Before things get really rough, we had better develop a Plan B!

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10kBq jaro

Date:

think about what would happen in a major city like .....Los Angeles, San Francisco.....when there were no grocery stores to buy food; no garbage trucks to pick up trash; when no police, fire or ambulance come when someone calls.


I think what would happen is that all of a sudden, Californians would realise that drilling for oil off the coast of California might possibly not be as environmentally damaging as everyone thinks it is right now



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GoogleNaut

Date:
Where the Oil Is


I think you make a good point there Jaro.

At one time there was a company interested in just building the drilling derricks on the North Coast of California (Humboldt Bay,) and then towing them to wherever in the world the customer wanted. There wasn't any intention of drilling off our coast--but many of the local residents and environmental groups equated the building of drilling derricks and platforms with with offshore drilling right here. Needless to say, the two billion dollar project was killed and the company now builds the derricks in South Korea (if memory serves.)

Yet another case where our Humboldt County Board of Supervisors '....cut of their own nose to spite their face...'

As you say, once things get really uncomfortable they'll tap the two or three billion barrel reserve off the coast of California--and then in a couple of years we'll be right back where we started.

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Philipum

Date:
RE: Oil is running out!


Do you know for how much time all the oil in California would supply the needs of the US?

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GoogleNaut

Date:

Perhaps a year, maybe more, maybe less. It would naturally take longer to extract because the field wouldn't be capable of producing 30 Million Barrels per day--production would have to be ramped up. My guess is that initial production ramp up would take ten years, peak production in twenty, and more or less tapering off after that. So that one to two year supply would probably take thirty or more years to extract. Look at the North Slope/Prudhoe Bay fields in Alaska, a similar time line is progressing there, although there maybe far more oil there than off the coast of California--but it still illustrates the point.


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10kBq jaro

Date:


http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,11580660%255E913,00.html
Demand set to rocket
By SUDEEP REDDY in Dallas, Texas
04dec04


EXPANSION of the global economy will increase energy demand by 50 per cent
over the next 25 years, creating major challenges for producers,
ExxonMobil Corp said yesterday.


Texas-based ExxonMobil's annual energy outlook said the 1.7 per cent
annual demand growth would be driven mostly by Asia.


The world's largest publicly traded oil company uses the annual long-term
outlook to plan projects expected to run several decades into the future.


ExxonMobil predicts widespread efficiency improvements and greater
diversification into nuclear energy and biofuels such as ethanol to meet demand.


But even as governments tried to spur the development of pollution-free
energy such as solar and wind power, ExxonMobil said those sources will
comprise only 1 per cent of the world energy supply by 2030.


"Ultimately, market fundamentals will prevail," said the company's general
manager of corporate planning, Alan Kelly.


"That means it's likely for hydrocarbons to remain the principal source of
energy for many decades to come."


Despite some concerns about the adequacy of global oil reserves,
ExxonMobil said the world had plenty available.
The planet has consumed about one trillion barrels of oil to date.
Most estimates put the world's proven oil reserves "those economically
recoverable today" at another one trillion barrels.
But the earth has more than six trillion barrels of conventional oil in
the ground, and several trillion barrels of unconventional supplies such
as oil sands.


The energy sector needs investment of US$200 billion a year to support
that supply growth, Mr Kelly said.


While that level is "likely and achievable" especially with new
technologies, he declined to say where prices would need to be to support
that level of development.


Mr Kelly said the company had faith in Saudi Arabia's ability to raise its
output capacity in the coming years to meet demand.


The Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) would need to
expand output each year by one million barrels a day. The cartel now
produces about 30 million barrels a day.


ExxonMobil also said:


GLOBAL energy demand would rise from today's equivalent of 220 million
barrels of oil a day to 335 million a day in 2030.


EXPECTED growth rate for the global economy was 2.8 per cent a year, the
same pace as in the last two decades, and world population would go from
6.3 billion to eight billion by 2030.


AMONG fossil fuels, natural gas demand would increase the most.


EMERGING Asian countries would account for half the demand growth.



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Philipum

Date:

"Mr Kelly said the company had faith in Saudi Arabia's ability to raise its
output capacity in the coming years to meet demand."

They are already running at maximum production rate!

"Ultimately, market fundamentals will prevail,"

Even over physical facts?

"But the earth has more than six trillion barrels of conventional oil in
the ground, and several trillion barrels of unconventional supplies such
as oil sands."

That statement is a lure: the 6 trillon barrels in the ground comprise the oil we have already consumed. It means that there are only 3 trillons left, i.e., half the total amount.

"While that level is "likely and achievable" especially with new
technologies, he declined to say where prices would need to be to support
that level of development."

By "new technologies", I guess they mean water injection. It does not only cost money, but it does not make the situation better: it gives a higher production rate under a certain time, and then a sharper drop.


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GoogleNaut

Date:

A really fantastic site that discusses these issues in great detail can be found at:

http://p088.ezboard.com/fdownstreamventurespetroleummarkets

This is a site dedicated to petroleum market behaviour, politics, investment and the like. Really fantastic resource. They have actively discussed many of the myths and facts and outright falsehoods regarding petroleum markets. I highly recommend it.



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Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 411
Date:

I recntly listened to this webcast, and found it to be quite excellent -- definitely worth the time spent.
 Subject: U. of Tennessee NE Dept. Colloquium and Webcast

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Speaker:    Dr. Charles Forsberg

                   Corporate Fellow

                   Oak Ridge National Laboratory

                   Oak Ridge, Tennessee


Topic:        Meeting U.S. Liquid Transport Fuel Needs with a Nuclear Hydrogen Biomass System
                 
                                                 
Where:      308 Pasqua Engineering Bldg.
                   U. of Tennessee Main Campus

When:       Wednesday, September 5, 2007
                  1:30 - 2:30 pm. EDT

Webcast:  http://www.engr.utk.edu/nuclear/colloquia
Viewers of the live webcast may submit questions and/or comments to the speaker either before or during the live webcast via an email message to utne@tennessee.edu.  Please include your name and affiliation in your email message.  Viewers who miss the live webcast can view the archived webcast, which is usually posted within 24 hours, athttp://www.engr.utk.edu/nuclear/colloquia/Archive/ .  Viewers may also receive the speaker's slides in PDF format via email request to Ellen Fisher (efisher3@utk.edu) after the live webcast.

Abstract:

 

The two major energy challenges for the United States are (1) replacing crude oil in our transportation system and (2) eliminating greenhouse gas emissions. A strategy is proposed to meet the total liquid-fuel transport energy needs within 30 years by producing greenhouse-neutral liquid fuels using biomass as the feedstock and nuclear energy to provide the heat, electricity, and hydrogen required for operation of the biomass-to-fuels production facilities. Biomass is produced from sunlight, atmospheric carbon dioxide, and water. Consequently, using liquid fuels from biomass has no net impacts on carbon dioxide levels because the carbon dioxide is being recycled to the atmosphere when the fuel is burnt. The U.S. could harvest about 1.3 billion tons of biomass per year without major impacts on food, fiber, or lumber costs. The energy content of this biomass is about equal to 10 million barrels of diesel fuel per day; however, the actual net liquid-fuels production would be less than half of this amount after accounting for energy to process the biomass into liquid fuel. If nuclear energy is used to provide the energy in the form of heat, electricity, and hydrogen to support biomass growth and conversion to liquid fuels, the equivalent of over 12 million barrels of greenhouse-neutral diesel fuel per day can be produced. The combination of biomass and nuclear energy may ultimately meet the total U.S. transport fuel needs.



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Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 606
Date:

The trouble is, even if you use all the biomass produceable in the US, you still can't meet the current demands for hydrocarbons in the US.

According to US DOE data: http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_sum_snd_a_ep00_mbblpd_m_cur.htm)

The US imports about 13.677 million bbl per day of oil (44 gal/bbl) and produces about 6.898 million barrel per day domestically for a net consumption of 20.575 million barrel per day of crude oil equivalent. Now in terms of volume and mass, this amounts to about 7.515 billion barrels per year, or enough oil to fill a cube slightly more than 1 km on a side, each year! The density of crude oil varies by quite a bit from region to region but if it were to average about 850 kg/m^3 then US consumption is about: 1.012 x 10^12 kg or a little over a billion metric tons of crude oil each year. (This amount of oil can be transported by 2000 ultratankers of 500,000 ton carrying capacity.) Of this billion metric tons hydrocarbon, carbon is 89-90% of this, so atleast 900 million metric tons of carbon are needed. If biomass is composed mostly of cellulose, then cellulose's chemical formula of C6H10O5 results in a formula weight of 162 g/mol of which carbon compose about 44 % of the mass of dry cellulose. This implies a dry biomass supply of 900 Mton/0.44=2025 Million metric tons per year of dry biomass. If biomass is thought to contain about 40-50% moisture (not an unreasonable estimate for a fresh harvest, I think) then the total biomass harvest must be greater than 4 billion metric tons per year.

These numbers are only for the US petroleum consumption. The total world consumption figures are going to be perhaps as much as 5 times this, or more. This indicates the size of the problem presented to us.

Petroleum will not be easily replaced!




http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_liquids.htm



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Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 411
Date:

Ty,
It seems that, by your accounting, Forsberg has made an error in his projections.
You should let him know !

PS. thanks for the comments.


.



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Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 606
Date:

Well, in all honesty, Dr. Forsberg's production figures are probably more realistic. I simply looked at the extreme view of replacing all domestic US consumption with synthetic hydrocarbons derived from carbon in biomass--namely wet cellulose.

I also assumed that future energy demand would be constant (not necessarily realistic) and that the conversion of biomass to hydrocarbons are an unrealistic 100% efficient (reality is probably a lot closer to 50% or slightly more). Also, in all fairness, I think he is talking about a partial replacement of petroleum consumption, and not a total replacement as I directed my simple calculations.

Having not seen his presentation yet, I feel it only fair to give this disclaimer...
I look forward to seeing the October 10th, 2007 presentation...

Even though my extreme view is, well a bit extreme, it is illustrative of just how big the problem is.

-- Edited by GoogleNaut at 04:27, 2007-10-03

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Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 400
Date:

Uh...Ok. so nuke-hydrogen liquid fuels production. Just a few points.

-Consolidation of land toward corporate control will accelerate even more than it is today.

-Massive hectares of land dedicated to biomass activity that's plenty of dust in the atmosphere to machine soil.

-What about stripping off top soil and the excess fertilization of agricultural areas with phosphate and nitrate run off into aquifers, rivers, lakes systems (eutrophication of water systems) and how do you deal with 'burnt' soil .

I mean... Ok, so it's a closed loop GH, but what about the peripheral damage to topography and earth geology. I can see parts of the Midwest engaging in this activity, but to base an entire U.S. liquid fuels industry on it is...an exaggeration. A sane energy policy is mix of methods whether you produce electricity, liquid fuels, or process petroleum from hydrocarbon sources. The good doctor is right the nuclear power plant is the turnkey to all these operations with that in mind you would achieve total independence from foreign oil dependency.  

-- Edited by NUKE ROCKY44 at 01:42, 2007-10-04

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Bruce Behrhorst


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 606
Date:

There is the Crux of the problem. No one single solution can do it: a mix of different technologies and different solutions will be needed. And it will be more expensive than oil--but then we already knew that anyways, simply because petroleum has been such a convenient (and arguably still is) energy source. But any synthetic fuel replacement will not be an energy source, but instead is an energy carrier. And that is the difference in thought that we must make: hydrogen, electric (whether direct connect or battery storage,)  biofuels or completely synthetic--these transportation energy carriers are themselves not energy sources: a prime mover is needed for that. And that is where nuclear power can come in: by providing electricity to create hydrogen, and process heat to convert biomass carbon into synthetic petroleum distillates, many transportation fuels can be created.

However, expanding electrically powered railroads, looking at some kind of electrically powered highway system, we can shift most of the rest of the residual petroleum consumption to aircraft, shipping and some motor vehicle traffic. By shifting the bulk of what we can--then the residual which will be much harder to convert can still be fueled with conventional fuels--and greenhouse gas emissions will still be globally reduced too.

And that's the way to think about it.


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