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Post Info TOPIC: freon powered rockets
Michael

Date:
freon powered rockets


I used to launch freon powered rockets by a company called Vashon Rockets. Does anyone know of them or have any rockets or parts for those rockets? I've often wondered if butane or propane could be substituted for the freon which of course cannot be used today. I launched a hybrid of the Vashon rocket with a two stage freon rocket and two solid rocket boosters. It went quite high and was a great show at our schools model rocketry club. We often launched rockets for the entire school on the football field. The school would be let out of class and sat in the bleachers for the show. This was in 1969 so this was a big deal then. In a way the freon rocket was a little like a nuclear rocket since it used a liquid propellant that was heated and expelled. Of course it didn't have a reactor to heat the fluid, the heat of the outside air did that. I have thought about using a peroxide engine with the silver mesh to cause the peroxide to flash into steam. I know they make some very efficient catalysts for similar motors used to push cars and other objects. A peroxide rocket would have a great deal of thrust with no fire and not require a lot of pressure to keep the peroxide liquid. Any thoughts on this?

Moon
My futures so bright, I gotta wear shades!


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yales

Date:

Leave it to the pros.


Concentrated hydrogen peroxide is an extreme hazard.


It is spontaneously explosive, shock & heat sensitive, corrosive, destroys body tissues (including eyes) on contact, and generally stuff to avoid.


yale



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yale

Date:

Vashon Freon Rockets


 


http://home.att.net/~cruller1/Vashon.story11.24.00.HTM#flyingtoday



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10kBq jaro

Date:


Peroxide is a relatively safe substance when handled properly.


You might have a problem obtaining the highest concentration products, since the vast majority of industrial production is geared to lower concentrations, for use in commercial pulp & paper plants. They buy the stuff by the train car load -- so I doubt you would be able to buy just a few gallons -- except perhaps from a lab chemicals supplier (surface shipment only, I'm sure)


But the highest commercial grade would certainly be useful in model rocketry :  I seem to recall that the ROTON project used 70% peroxide to test their rocket-tip-driven rotor.....  Of course you could boost the performance of your rocket by running the exhaust through a hybrid rocket engine, like some of the X-prise competitors (using asphalt in the fuel block)


A little over a decade ago I worked on an engineering project for Chemprox, a hydrogen peroxide producer here in Quebec, in the Becancour industrial park across the river from Trois Rivieres. Chemprox is one of a small number of large-scale hydrogen peroxide manufacturers in North America.


Most of their product is 30% and 50% concentrated H2O2, but they also produce some 70% H2O2 (all of which is way more than your household 5% H2O2).


I recall being told that the peroxide is largely sold to pulp & paper companies who are switching from chlorine to peroxide bleach (I also worked on another project at next-door ICI's chlorine production plant, but that's another story....). While the use of peroxide in paper making may eliminate dioxin byproducts, the production of hydrogen peroxide itself involves the use of large amounts of anthraquinone, which is a toxic chemical. But even then, I already heard that some companies were attempting to implement a "non-chemical," direct electro-chemical production process for H2O2. No idea how wide-spread that novel process has become today, if at all.


Anyhow, high-test peroxide (HTP) is amazing stuff, as I recall from a safety demonstration at the plant.


The technician poured a small amount of 70% H2O2 into a leather glove, in order to illustrate his point about why one should avoid using anything but plastic gloves at the plant.


After a few seconds on the ground, the glove begun to smoulder and quickly caught fire.


The impressive part though, was when the fire quickly turned into a blast of flames like those from a welding blowtorch. There was virtually nothing left of the glove.


Definitely not something you'd want to have on your hands !


Being familiar with the use of peroxide for rocket propulsion - both as monopropellant catalyzed by silver, and in combination with a hydrocarbon fuel - I was expecting to see something impressive (rockets use 99%-plus H2O2).


But nothing beats seeing such a demonstration first hand.


And of course I took note of the startled reaction of my other colleagues, who had no knowledge of the rocket applications of peroxide....


Regards,


Jaro


http://www.cns-snc.ca/branches/quebec/quebec_main.html



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10kBq jaro

Date:

I read recently that the Armadilllo group,( http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home ) is also using 70% H2O2 in their rocket tests -- only they use *unstabilised* H2O2.


That's quite interesting, since commercially made peroxide is the stabilised variety.


At that level of concentration, I suspect the stabilisation is intended more for extending the "shelf life" of the product, than for safety reasons (assuming either plastic or passivated stainless steel tanks are used for storage....).


Still, if it affects engine operation (i.e. effectiveness of the catalyst), then it would appear to be another obstacle, complicating the procurement process.... I guess that may explain the fact that a number of rocketeers have given up on peroxide altogether, going with nitrous oxide instead as the oxidiser of choice....


 


 



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GoogleNaut

Date:

I think your assessment is correct, Jaro. Safe handling of 70%H2O2 is a must since spilling this chemical on cotton clothing will result in serious burns--both chemical and thermal when the cotton ignites!

Also, accidental decomposition by spillage or other contact with permanganates, silver (such as in solder,) or copper compounds can result in a bad steam explosion or worse. Hydrogen peroxide is neat stuff though--you've just got to be careful with it.


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