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Post Info TOPIC: High temperature gas question


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High temperature gas question


What is the highest temperature that we could "Pipe" hot hydrogen over appreciable distences at.


What is the highest "steady state" temperature that a gas cooled reactor could opperate at?


Could we manage >2000K?


 


Dusty



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Simply "piping" hydrogen is much less challenging than heating it in a reactor such as an NTR.


Re. the 2nd question, it depends on how long you need to maintain the steady state temperature : For a commercial NPP, that needs to be 40-plus years. Even with inert helium gas, it will be very challenging to get the operating temperature up to 1000C while avoiding serious component degradation. See http://nuclear.inl.gov/gen4/vhtr.shtml


Hydrogen is much worse. But the NERVA/ ROVER tests showed that average coolant exit temperatures of 2550K are possible. The "Pewee" reactor ran at 514 MW for 40 minutes in 1968, Isp = 845 sec; fuel was UC2 beaded particles with pyrolytic graphite coating, in a graphite matrix with zirconium carbide coating to protect against hydrogen corrosion. At higher temperatures, these particles would crack, due to mismatched thermal conductivities.


Tests on the nuclear furnace (NF-1) showed that composite carbide matrix (U,Zr)C in graphite substrate and ZrC coating could provide fuel good to ~2800 K for 4 to 6 hours of operation. For one hour operation, the carbide fuel could possibly run as high as 3300 K.


A final design in the project, called the "Small Engine," was intended to be coupled to a large hydrogen fuel tank in a complete Shuttle-compatible nuclear stage (see Los Alamos rep't LA-5044-MS). Its overall length of 18.3m (with engine nozzle skirt folded away) and 4.5m tank diameter would fit into the Shuttle cargo bay, providing a reusable nuclear stage that could be supplemented with additional hydrogen fuel tanks in order to support many interesting space missions....


Then the project was canned.



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Right OK


 


Daft idea coming up! (so don’t shoot me down in flames, or, if you do, do it gently!)


 


Googlenaut commented in another thread about issues concerning attitude control spin etc on large Orion’s. Added to which, it is difficult to see how one might get a (Little) deltaV of much less than 10M/S from the main engines. (If you are trying to match orbits with an space station or another ship 10M/S = Miss or Crash!)


 


We either have to have relatively low efficiency chem. Thrusters all over the place (and a significant amount of fuel) Multiple NTR’s are not really an option Or Option #3 J


 


How about a central high temperature reactor heating hydrogen to a high temp and then distributing it to various attitude control nozzles situated in appropriate locations around the periphery of the ship (I envisage some sort of “Ring Main” to minimise thrusters lag. A bit like the hot water distribution system in “Well designed” large buildings) I would hope that we might be able to get better ISP than Chem (though not as good as dedicated NTR) Also the thrust would be lower because we wouldn’t be able to get the same flow rates


 


Course corrections would be planned in advance and the system could be “Warmed up” when needed.


 


This wouldn’t obviate the need for standard chem Thrusters but might reduce the scale of their requirement.


 


(We would still need “Emergency” thrusters I imagine and I suspect that these would have to be hypergolic to provide rapid response)



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Dusty wrote:


Multiple NTR’s are not really an option Or Option #3 J   How about a central high temperature reactor heating hydrogen to a high temp and then distributing it to various attitude control nozzles situated in appropriate locations around the periphery of the ship (I envisage some sort of “Ring Main” to minimise thrusters lag. A bit like the hot water distribution system in “Well designed” large buildings)


I guess that would depend on the size of Orion ship you're talking about. For the minimal versions that were initially conceiver for launch by Saturn V type boosters, the single NTR would certainly work well, and the piping wouldn't be more than a few meters long.


For the big Orions though, I think the piping would be of such great length, that it would cause too much performance loss for a single central NTR.


But NTRs are small things, so putting six or eight of them around the periphery wouldn't be a great detriment to overall ship performance. Certainly piping cold H2 propellant to the NTRs from a central cryo tank would be much easier to do, than trying to do the same thing with superheated exhaust jets !!


 



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I'd have to agree with Jaro, here. Piping high temperature, high pressure gasses is no trivial task. And at the temperatures of typical rocket exhausts (2000+ Kelvins) this is not only no small feat--I don't think it has ever been done. Conduction losses would necessitate active cooling of the pipes. Valving is a mystery--I'm not sure how you could do valving on high temperature/high pressure/high speed gas flows. Turbulance losses. And then there is the problem of resonance--which is always bad news in any rocket engine design--this leads to whistling which almost always terminates within a fraction of a second with: "KaBoom!" The problem is that any high temperature, high pressure flow has so much energy in thermal motion of individual molecules that any acoustical modes present are almost always amplified--as energy is dumped into resonant modes, converting thermal energy into mechanical energy (large group oscillations,) then pressure oscillations will build until something breaks. And because of the powers involved, catastrophic failure is usually a fraction of a second away...So rocket engineers stringently design out and test for resonances, and tinker and modify to elimate acoustical resonance modes. It's tough to detune the thing to the point that it won't resonate at all--typically this is impossible. But engineers merely try to identify the most harmful and energetic 'modes' and elimate them.

There are also other complexities involved with hot gas flows in pipes--if at any point the flow becomes supersonic within the pipe, then there exists the possibility that a sharp turn or flow constriction will cause the gas to 'stall' -- i.e., reflected shockwaves creates a back pressure which can bring the flow to an abrupt halt within the pipe, which usually results in an explosion. The hotter the flow, the higher pressure it is, and the faster the flow is, the more prone to 'stagnation shocks' forming within the tube. Interesting problem--I don't think anyone has ever tried that before...


-- Edited by GoogleNaut at 04:38, 2006-02-13

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Since Dusty was talking about attitude control thrusters, I figured that somewhat less extreme flow conditions could be designed -- comparable to large turbojet engines, with which we have plenty of ducting & thrust vectoring eperience.....


I would guess that one way to lower the risks is to keep the exhaust duct from the NTR at roughly the same diameter as the reactor vessel, to maintain a low flow velocity. Of course at the far end, one would still need the nozzle throat constriction, which is what may cause oscillation trouble, if not designed properly.... And if any radical flow turning is required, that would probably need to be done upstream of the nozzle throat, in the large-diameter pipe.


You may recall that the gas core reactor rocket faces a similar problem, requiring a radical 180-degree exhaust duct turn, to avoid dumping the fuel from the reactor vessel, when the ship starts accelerating. That is a far worse situation, because it's the main ship propulsion system, in this case. It makes the standard GCNR design impractical, IMO, for all the reasons spelled out by Googlenaut.



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Just a comment about the Gas Core Nuclear Reactor concept--atleast in the application of the vapor core reactor envisioned by the University of Florida (http://www.inspi.ufl.edu/gcr.pdf)

Since it appears that the flow redirection is actually apart of the expansion nozzle, then it is possible to design the nozzle so that redirection does not produce the stagnation shocks I mentioned earlier. As long as the primary restriction is downstream of the 'turn' then the flow upstream and through the turn will be subsonic, and the flow downstream going through the MHD will be supersonic. Subtle engineering...!


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Good point.


I would only add that the VCR has what could probably be best described as a plug nozzle, with nice polar/ radial symmetry. Although this in itself doesn't guarantee stability against flow oscillations, such symmetrical arrangements lend themselves very well to gas dynamics analysis and finite element modeling, redily yielding acceptable solutions.


In fact, because of the flow symmetry in the plug nozzle, the net flow isn't really redirected away from the axis of symmetry, as it would be in a curved flow duct 



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