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Post Info TOPIC: Prometheus project: Mission to Neptune Under Study
10kBq jaro

Date:
Prometheus project: Mission to Neptune Under Study


This sounds like a teriffic mission -- two Triton landers and three Neptune atmospheric probes ! Wow !!!  (....unfortunately I may not live to see the day  )


http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/mission_neptune_study.html?9122004


Mission to Neptune Under Study


Summary - (Dec 9, 2004) With Jupiter and now Saturn getting attention, NASA is setting its eyes further out in the Solar System - on Neptune. A mission to this "ice giant" could launch in a decade, and arrive at the 8th planet by 2035. It would be powered by a nuclear-electric propulsion system, similar to the one being considered for the Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter (JIMO) mission. Because it is so far from the Sun, Neptune has had less interaction with the solar wind, asteroids and comets, so studying it would give scientists a better understanding of the conditions that led to the formation of the Solar System.


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Full Story - In 30 years, a nuclear-powered space exploration mission to Neptune and its moons may begin to reveal some of our solar system's most elusive secrets about the formation of its planets -- and recently discovered ones that developed around other stars.


This vision of the future is the focus of a 12-month planning study conducted by a diverse team of experts led by Boeing Satellite Systems and funded by NASA. It is one of 15 "Vision Mission" studies intended to develop concepts in the United States' long-term space exploration plans. Neptune team member and radio scientist Professor Paul Steffes of the Georgia Institute of Technology's School of Electrical and Computer Engineering calls the mission "the ultimate in deep space exploration."


NASA has flown extensive missions to Jupiter and Saturn, referred to as the "gas giants" because they are predominantly made up of hydrogen and helium. By 2012, these investigations will have yielded significant information on the chemical and physical properties of these planets. Less is known about Neptune and Uranus -- the "ice giants."


"Because they are farther out, Neptune and Uranus represent something that contains more of the original - to use a 'Carl Saganism' - 'solar stuff' or the nebula that condensed to form planets," Steffes said. "Neptune is a rawer planet. It is less influenced by near-sun materials, and it's had fewer collisions with comets and asteroids. It's more representative of the primordial solar system than Jupiter or Saturn."


Also, because Neptune is so cold, its structure is different from Jupiter and Saturn. A mission to investigate the origin and structure of Neptune -- expected to launch between 2016 and 2018 and arrive around 2035 -- will increase scientists' understanding of diverse planetary formation in our solar system and in others, Steffes noted.


The mission team is also interested in exploring Neptune's moons, especially Triton, which planetary scientists believe to be a Kuiper belt object. Such balls of ice are micro planets that can be up to 1,000 kilometers in diameter and are generally found in the outermost regions of our solar system. Based on studies to date, scientists believe Triton was not formed from Neptune materials, like most moons orbiting planets in our solar system. Instead, Triton is likely a Kuiper belt object that was accidentally pulled into Neptune's orbit.


"Triton was formed way out in space," Steffes said. "It is not even a close relative of Neptune. It's an adopted child…. We believe Kuiper belt objects like Triton were key to the development of our solar system, so there's a lot of interest in visiting Triton."


Though they face a number of technical challenges -- including entry probe design, and telecommunications and scientific instrument development -- the Neptune Vision Mission team has developed an initial plan. Team members, including Steffes, have been presenting it this fall at a variety of scientific meetings to encourage feedback from other experts. On Dec. 17, they will present it again at the annual meeting of the American Geophysical Union. Their final recommendations are due to NASA in July 2005.


The plan is based on the availability of nuclear-electric propulsion technology under development in NASA's Project Prometheus. A traditional chemical rocket would launch the spacecraft out of Earth orbit. Then an electric propulsion system powered by a small nuclear fission reactor - a modified submarine-type technology -- would propel the spacecraft to its deep-space target. The propulsion system would generate thrust by expelling electrically charged particles called ions from its engines.


Because of the large scientific payload a nuclear-electric propelled spacecraft can carry and power, the Neptune mission holds great promise for scientific discovery, Steffes said.


The mission will employ electrical and optical sensors aboard the orbiter and three probes for sensing the nature of Neptune's atmosphere, said Steffes, an expert in remote radio sensing of planetary atmospheres. Specifically, the mission will gather data on Neptune's atmospheric elemental ratios relative to hydrogen and key isotopic ratios, as well as the planet's gravity and magnetic fields. It will investigate global atmospheric circulation dynamics, meteorology and chemistry. On Triton, two landers will gather atmospheric and geochemical information near geysers on the surface.


The mission's three entry probes will be dropped into Neptune's atmosphere at three different latitudes - the equatorial zone, a mid-latitude and a polar region. Mission designers face the challenge of transmitting data from the probes through Neptune's radiowave-absorbing atmosphere. Steffes' lab at Georgia Tech has conducted extensive research and gained a thorough understanding of how to address this problem, he noted.


The mission team is still discussing how deep the probes should be deployed into Neptune's atmosphere to get meaningful scientific data. "If we pick a low enough frequency of radio signals, we can go down to 500 to 1,000 Earth atmospheres, which is 7,500 pounds of pressure per square inch (PSI)," Steffes explained. "That pressure is similar to what a submarine experiences in the deep ocean."


However, that depth will probably not be required, according to the mission team's atmospheric modelers, Steffes said. The probes will be able to obtain most information at only 100 Earth atmospheres, or 1,500 PSI.


Original Source: Georgia Tech News Release


http://gtresearchnews.gatech.edu/newsrelease/neptune.htm



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GoogleNaut

Date:
RE: Prometheus project: Mission to Neptune Under S


The same basic mission architecture as JIMO could be harnessed to explore all of the outer planets, and with appropriate heat shielding (addition of solar panels, and possibly elimination of the nuclear reactor) could even be used to check out Mercury or interior of that. If NASA plays its cards right, the JIMO architecture could be the first real unmanned 'clipper ship' for exploration. I would like to see it tested and then put into production. Missions to the asteroids and Kuiper belt objects would be possible. Putting additional propellant tankage (and an additional reactor) and then staging the machine could achieve a first ever probe of near-interstellar space [of course, this would require much additional resources for the space program--and a real space station to assemble it...]

Once the concept of nuclear-electric propulsion is firmly established as a safe technology, I see no reason why a second generation system couldn't be created to carry humans to similar destinations. Maybe in a hundred-fifty years, humans will be cruising between Earth, Moon, and Mars and various asteroids in large, nuclear-electric vessels.

I hope so--the resources of Earth will not last forever....

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Dusty

Date:
RE: Prometheus project: Mission to Neptune Under Study


Why does this have to take so long?


Ill be dead before this happens!


I want to know what Neptune is like before I die!!!


(and a lot more besides)


Why cant we do it quicker???



<Grizzle Grizzle>


Dusty




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Terry

Date:
RE: Prometheus project: Mission to Neptune Under S


It is a sad state that NASA is in compared to the early days. Consider how fast things moved from Mercury to Apollo 11 - less than 10 years elapsed.

We could have had fleets of manned NPR's exploring the outer solar system in the late 1970's!

Hindsight, eh?

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GoogleNaut

Date:

Well, honestly, I agree. If we pushed for a serious national (or concerted international) effort, I see no real reason why we coudn't achive many of these things in twenty years. It unfortunately takes about that long to develop the new launch infrastructure. A real concerted 'crash' effort could probably get something flyable in 5 years.

I don't think it is too unthinkable that space nuclear-electric propulsion could start in fifteen years--with man rated systems tested ten years after that. [The time is needed to robustly test the propulsion systems on other long duration missions--before people come on board.]

I am not sure what all is necessary--I'm not an engineer (just a wannabe!)--but I am a good observer, and other programs have achieved this level of development. The Apollo program was a fantastic example of a National Will harnessed to the task. Thousands of people worked extra shifts--many without pay--just for the honor of working on such a historic project. Without the combined efforts of hundreds of thousands of people, billions of dollars, a President with a Vision, and a Congress to back him up--the Space Program will go nowhere. It takes a national will--and the people to support it--to achieve such a feat..

As with the Vietnam War era and project Apollo--we are a nation again at war. Hopefully our President has Vision (Mr. Bush seems to be somewhat lacking in the JFK-caliber charsima department--but he has made a few promising statements...) Much of our Congress--like much of the American public--are complacent, lazy, and not interested in anything other than what they can get away with their next paycheck...

This is a particularly damning and pessimistic assesment--I know--however, it also seems to be the most realistic (which sucks!)

We can change this.

We can aspire to do better as a people by forcing our elected officials to see the value of the Space Program. Our Nation (and the rest of the world) is at a Crossroads. Fossile fuels will not last forever as a major energy source. Resource depletion will eventually slow economic growth--which will result in an economic backslide. This backslide will continue until we are no longer able to support a technological civilization. We must make our leaders understand this. Fossile fuels and the other resources are the initial downpayment--we must find a more sustainable way to make our living. The energy and material resources found in space can give us what we need to keep civilization growing..

Economic growth will automatically increase revenues to government coffers without increasing taxes. Increased taxes means increased funding for all programs.

Anyways, this is way off topic, but my point is that in order for our space program to achieve these great things, it needs to grow. In order for it to grow, it must have more money. Right now it is fighting a usual loosing battle over thinning pie slices--spending on Social Services has topped 55% of the Federal Budget and is growing at an alarming rate. If nothing else changes and Social Services continues it's growth, in perhaps only 25 years, it will encompass ALL of the Federal Budget (no more Defense Spending--and certainly no more Space Program.) Clearly this cannot continue!

So we must grow the economy--and to do that we must invest in the sectors of the economy that creates economic growth. Spending in high technology sectors, and basic research infrastructure, as well as education can achieve economic growth in a generation. Spending on a robust space program can be one of the things that can stimulate economic growth.

Moreover, a systematic plan to industrialize and colonize space should be a long term goal of this program. Economic growth outside of earth orbit will bring new energy sources, mineral sources and new places to live. Deep space (solar system spanning) nuclear ships can then be built from local materials, and funded locally as well. In order to create the space infrastructure--we must invest in the kernel technologies that can get us there. Which means we must develop heavy lift launch vehicles; a replacement for the shuttle; a space station that is a real honest to god space station--one that has an equatorial orbit and is large enough to be an orbital construction and launching platform. We should seriously consider tapping the resources of the near earth asteroids--they contain carbon, volatiles, nickel, platinum group metals, and many other basic materials necessary for all kinds of industries. Going back to the Moon--yes the disdainful grey object in the sky--should also be done. The moon can supply some of the necessary construction materials for space craft, space stations, and satellites: titanium and aluminum. Both materials found on Earth--but only at the bottom of a deep gravity well. As a byproduct, the moon could also serve as a fantastic platform for astronomy--building a Very Large Optical Array would be a no brainer if the requisit industrial infrastructure was in place already.

Ships built in low earth orbit, or high orbit (L-4 or L-5) from Lunar titanium and fueled with volatiles extracted from Near Earth Asteroids may one day take regular passengers to Mars and beyond.

This could be our civilizations 'life work.' It could be our Great Pyramids. And it could be the very thing that will see us through for the next ten thousand years. Or longer.

And it sure beats the hell out of fighting for oil and other diminishing resources on this increasingly shrinking planet!

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Dusty

Date:
RE: Prometheus project: Mission to Neptune Under Study


Hear Hear.


However I suspect that the construction metal of choice for space industrialisation, despite its weight, is likly to be Iron.


Dusty



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10kBq jaro

Date:

My money is on nanotechnology to open up large-scale access to space (LEO, Moon, etc.) via the space elevator, using carbon nanotubes.
Some interesting progress in this area has been made recently, as shown below :
 
 


http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2004/120104/For_pure_nanotubes_add_water_120104.html


For pure nanotubes add water


December 1/8, 2004


By Eric Smalley, Technology Research News


Washing away impurities with water turns out to be as good for growing carbon nanotubes as it is for keeping a clean house.


Carbon nanotubes show great promise as building blocks for molecular machines, high-speed electronics and super-strong materials, but it has proven difficult to reliably grow large amounts of pure carbon nanotubes and to keep the growth process orderly.


The long, rolled-up sheets of carbon atoms can be narrower than a single nanometer, have useful electrical, optical, and magnetic properties, and are stronger by weight than steel. A nanometer is one millionth of a millimeter, or the span of 10 hydrogen atoms.


Researchers from the Japanese National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology (AIST) have added water to the standard method of manufacturing carbon nanotubes to produce tall, dense, vertically-aligned stands of pure nanotubes. The researchers' demonstrations have yielded stands of single-wall carbon nanotubes as tall as 2.5 millimeters and 99.98 percent pure. Individual nanotubes range from one to three nanometers in diameter.


The purity of the nanotubes makes the usual post-growth purification process unnecessary. This makes the method quicker, less expensive and less likely to damage the nanotubes than existing processes, said Kenji Hata, a senior researcher at the Japan National Institute of Advanced Industrial Science and Technology. Nanotubes produced using the method are orderly and pure enough for use in many fields, including biology, medical implants, chemistry, electronics and magnetics research, he said.


Carbon nanotubes are typically grown using chemical vapor deposition techniques. These involve heating surfaces like silicon wafers or metal foil that contain microscopic metal particles in the presence of gases like methane or ethylene. The metal particles act as catalysts that extract carbon atoms from the gases; the carbon atoms then naturally form nanotubes.


Ordinarily growth stops after about one minute as disorganized carbon soot accumulates. Water removes this amorphous carbon layer, making more catalysts particles active so that more nanotubes grow, and keeping the catalysts active longer to produce taller nanotubes. "This synthesis is highly efficient, meaning that almost all the catalysts on the surface are active in growing tubes," said Hata.


The high density of the nanotubes causes them to grow vertically rather than in many directions. "This is all due to the use of water," said Hata. If the number of nanotubes in a given space is too low "the tubes would not be able to stand and form these structures [and] you would end up with a pile of spaghetti," he said.


The nanotube structures can be easily removed from the surfaces and the catalysts used again to produce new structures, said Hata.


Because the water keeps amorphous carbon from the samples, the process does not require a step to remove the amorphous carbon.


The researchers' demonstrations have shown that growth can continue for as long as 30 minutes. Their fastest growth to date is a 10-minute 2.5-millimeter sample.


The researchers used lithography techniques to pattern the catalysts on surfaces in order to grow various three-dimensional structures, including arrays of cylinders and sheets. The researchers produced cylinders 1 millimeter tall and about one third of a millimeter in diameter. They also produced 10-micron thick sheets that can be laid flat to form thin films of pure carbon.


The method could be used to mass produce carbon nanotubes within five years, and for practical applications within ten years, said Hata.


Hata's research colleagues were Don N. Futaba, Kohei Mizuno, Tatsunori Namai, Motoo Yumura and Sumio Iijima. The work appeared in the November 19, 2004 issue of Science. The research was funded by the Japan National Institute for Advanced Industrial Science and Technology (AIST) and the New Energy and Industrial Technology Development Organization (NEDO).


Timeline: 5 years, 10 years


Funding: Government


TRN Categories: Nanotechnology; Materials Science and Engineering


Story Type: News


Related Elements: Technical paper, "Water-Assisted Highly Efficient Synthesis of Impurity-Free Single-Walled Carbon Nanotubes," Science, November 19, 2004


 
 
 
 
 

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Terry

Date:
RE: Prometheus project: Mission to Neptune Under S


I hope the space elevator concept works. It could vastly reduce the cost to reach orbit. But an efficient and powerful drive system is still needed to take us to other points within the solar system - and that's where nuclear power and propulsion will shine.

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GoogleNaut

Date:

The space elevator concept is intruiging--especially in light of the fact that electrical energy and a MAGLEV style drive could be used to power the thing. It should be possible to move quite a lot of commerce up and down.

Other than the obvious usual engineering problems associated with such a technology (strength of materials, amongst others;) there's just one more question that few have addressed satisfactorily. How do you build it?

The space elevator assumes an already established space infrastructure (obviously, you can't build this thing from the ground up!) Only a robust space indsutry, with thousands of qorkers on the ground and in space can achieve this. Not to mention materials; likely millions of tons and more likely billions of tons of carbon and other materials will be required to build this thing. An obvious choice for resources would be a Near Earth carbonaceous asteroid. Carbonaceous asteroids are presumably loaded with volatiles--all necessary for space industrialization. This assumes the existance of a robust space transportation infrastructure--from the ground up.

Nano machines are intruiging, and they may yet 'save the day' for humanity--but still, no one has yet designed a system (even conceptually) that can assemble anything one atom at a time. True, there have been experiments in which single atoms have been moved around, but has anyone tried bonding them yet? K. Eric Drexler's dream of a desktop nano-factory (or molecular printer--as I believe it has been called) has yet to be designed as a conceptual machine in total. Many necessary details of even the 'unit workcell' have yet to be conceptualized: how is raw material sorted, distributed and transported to the necessary job sites (likely this will be achieved with handoff nanobots--which pluck and handoff to the next bot one atom at a time!) How about command and control? How is this achieved? (Special purpose nanobots are 'hardwired' to do only one task. Material or work unit is brought to them for task completion, before being taken away for another task.) How is it powered? [Many have theorized that the whole process could be powered by the thermal oscillations of a fluid medium in which the nanobots and the work units are immersed. This jostling of molecules is called 'Brownian Motion." This is uncannily like Maxwell's Demon--it definately flirts with the Second Law of Thermodynamics!
Nanotechnology holds great promise, but it is a technology which is still in its infancy. Interestingly, nanotechnology may be the only way to achieve the magical performance of the science fiction "Replicators" of the Star Trek universe. Perhaps someday we will have a nano-replicator factory as a desktop unit. What a tool that would be!

Anyways, back on topic, the space elevator concept is great, but its construction already assumes the existence of a large space infrastructure. So, in my humble opinion, the space elevator will come about as the result of a mature space industrialization effort, and not the other way around. So the problem as I see it, is that we need to get that space industrialization effort 'off the ground." To do that, we must develop the heavy lift launcher technologies; a better space station big enough to house a lot of people; put more money into basic research and education--yudda, yudda and etc. To accomplish this, we MUST have the national will to do it! This is an effort that will likely cost hundreds of billions of dollars--but that is what it's going to take.

The only other way around all this is to have some super-technological breakthrough which simultaneously solves the energy problem and negates the effects of gravity at the same time. Such a breakthrough could attract a lot of venture capital very quickly. However, what is more realistic? A step by step sustained effort over many decades--or a quick, easy and cheap breakthrough? Well, if anyone has a breakthrough idea--great, let's hear it. We desperately need it!

Otherwise, my money is on the 'Sustained Effort.' It's going to cost us a lot, but if we don't do it, then it's going to cost us a lot more: perhaps our eventual extinction!

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10kBq jaro

Date:
RE: Prometheus project: Mission to Neptune Under Study


Good points Googlenaut.


Particularly about the need for heavy lift capability.


OTOH, I recall reading (see below) that the space elevator could perhaps be developed in a sort of boot-strap mode :  First would be a lunar elevator, which could actually be deployed from a single spool, if its initially only sized for small payloads ( < 1 tonne). The small payloads can be used to bring up more material (perhaps just to support the L1 station crew and propellant for their shuttle craft), and/or additional spools can be brought in from earth to gradually increase the number of strands making up the elevator cable....  Once this system matures, materials can be supplied to the construction of an earth elevator -- initially perhaps just a "rotavator," followed later by a full-scale GEO version. Think of it as the narrow-gauge railway systems of the 19th century, that were eventually replaced by today's standard railway gauge....


As for the possibility of using material from Near Earth carbonaceous asteroids, I belive that Dennis Wingo, the author of "Moonrush," got it right when he said that we have a better chance of finding the required materials on the moon, which has been "collecting" all sorts of asteroids on its surface for hundreds of millions of years -- whereas NEA's are very few & far between, and rarely made of useful types of materials (question: do we know presently of even a single carbonceous-type NEA ?  .....the same question could certainly be posed about locations of specific carbonceous NEA debris sites on the moon, but the point is that in this case the search is limited to a sigle location -- the moon -- with well-defined acessibilty requirements....).


=========================================


http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/lunar_space_elevator.html?18112004


Space Elevator? Build it on the Moon First


Summary - (Nov 18, 2004) Science fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke famously predicted that we'd see space elevators 50 years after people stopped laughing at the idea. Jerome Pearson has been thinking about space elevators since the early 1970s, and he's been watching the growing enthusiasm (and fading chuckles) with great interest. But he knows there are significant challenges in engineering and materials that still need to be overcome, so he's suggesting NASA build an elevator on the Moon first. And the agency is taking the idea seriously.


Full Story - A speech by Arthur C. Clarke in the 1960s, explaining geostationary satellites gave Pearson the inspiration for the whole concept of space elevators while he was working at the NASA Ames Research Center in California during the days of the Apollo Moon landings.


"Clarke said that a good way to understand communications satellites in geostationary orbit was to imagine them at the top of a tall tower, perched 35,786 km (22,236 miles) above the Earth," Pearson recalls, "I figured, why not build an actual tower?"


He realized that it was theoretically possible to park a counterweight, like a small asteroid, in geostationary orbit and then extend a cable down and affix it at the Earth's equator. In theory, elevator cars could travel up the long cable, and transfer cargo out of the Earth's gravity well and into space at a fraction of the price delivered by chemical rockets.


... in theory. The problem then, and now, is that the material required to support even just the weight of the cable in the Earth's gravity doesn't exist. Only in the last few years, with the advent of carbon nanotubes - with a tensile strength in the ballpark - people have finally moved past the laughing stage, and begun investigating it seriously. And while carbon nanotubes have been manufactured in small quantities in the lab, engineers are still years away from weaving them together into a long cable that could provide the necessary strength.


Pearson knew the technical challenges were formidable, so he wondered, "why not build an elevator on the Moon?"


On the Moon, the force of gravity is one sixth of what we feel here on Earth, and a space elevator cable is well within our current manufacturing technology. Stretch a cable up from the surface of the Moon, and you'd have an inexpensive method of delivering minerals and supplies into Earth orbit.


A lunar space elevator would work differently than one based on Earth. Unlike our own planet, which rotates every 24 hours, the Moon only turns on its axis once every 29 days; the same amount of time it takes to complete one orbit around the Earth. This is why we can only ever see one side of the Moon. The concept of geostationary orbit doesn't really make sense around the Moon.


There are, however, five places in the Earth-Moon system where you could put an object of low mass - like a satellite... or a space elevator counterweight - and have them remain stable with very little energy: the Earth-Moon Lagrange points. The L1 point, a spot approximately 58,000 km above the surface of the Moon, will work perfectly.


Imaging that you're floating in space at a point between the Earth and the Moon where the force of gravity from both is perfectly balanced. Look to your left, and the Moon is approximately 58,000 km (37,000 miles) away; look to your right and the Earth is more than 5 times that distance. Without any kind of thrusters, you'll eventually drift out of this perfect balancing point, and then start accelerating towards either the Earth or the Moon. L1 is balanced, but unstable.


Pearson is proposing that NASA launch a spacecraft carrying a huge spool of cable to the L1 point. It would slowly back away from the L1 point as it unspooled its cable down to the surface of the Moon. Once the cable was anchored to the lunar surface, it would provide tension, and the entire cable would hang in perfect balance, like a pendulum pointed towards the ground. And like a pendulum, the elevator would always keep itself aligned perfectly towards the L1 point, as the Earth's gravity tugged away at it. The mission could even include a small solar powered climber which could climb up from the lunar surface to the top of the cable, and deliver samples of moon rocks into a high Earth orbit. Further missions could deliver whole teams of climbers, and turn the concept into a mass production operation.


The advantage of connecting an elevator to the Moon instead of the Earth is the simple fact that the forces involved are much smaller - the Moon's gravity is 1/6th that of Earth's. Instead of exotic nanotubes with extreme tensile strengths, the cable could be built using high-strength commercially available materials, like Kevlar or Spectra. In fact, Pearson has zeroed in on a commercial fibre called M5 [http://www.m5fiber.com/magellan/m5_fiber.htm], which he calculates would only weigh 6,800 kg for a full cable that would support a lifting capacity of 200 kg at the base. This is well within the capabilities of the most powerful rockets supplied by Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Arianespace. One launch is it takes to put an elevator on the Moon. And once the elevator was installed, you could start reinforcing it with additional materials, like glass and boron, which could be manufactured on the Moon


So, what would you do with a space elevator connected to the Moon? "Plenty," says Pearson, "there are all kinds of resources on the Moon which would be much easier to gather there and bring into orbit rather than launching them from the Earth. Lunar regolith (moon dirt) could be used as shielding for space stations; metals and other minerals could be mined from the surface and used for construction in space; and if ice is discovered at the Moon's south pole, you could supply water, oxygen and even fuel to spacecraft."


If water ice does turn up at the Moon's south pole, you could run a second cable there, and then connect it at the end to the first cable. This would allow a southern Moon base to deliver material into high-Earth orbit without having to travel along the ground to the base of the first elevator.


http://www.universetoday.com/am/uploads/2004-1118elevator-full.jpg


It'd be great for rocks, but not for people. Even if a climber moved up the cable at hundreds of kilometres an hour, astronauts would be traveling for weeks, and be exposed to the radiation of deep space. But when you're talking about cargo, slow and steady wins the race.


Pearson first published his idea of a lunar elevator back in 1979 and he's been pitching it ever since. This year, though, NASA's not laughing, they're listening. Pearson's company, Star Technology and Research, was recently awarded a $75,000 grant from NASA's Institute for Advanced Concepts (NIAC) for a six-month study to investigate the idea further. If the idea proves to be promising, Pearson could receive a larger grant to begin overcoming some of the engineering challenges, and look for partners inside and NASA and out to help in its development.


NIAC looks for ideas which are way outside NASA's normal comfort zone of technologies - for example... an elevator on the Moon - and helps develop them to the point that many of the risks and unknowns have been ironed out.


Pearson hopes this grant will help him make the case to NASA that a lunar elevator would be an invaluable contribution to the new Moon-Mars space exploration vision, supporting future lunar bases and industries in space. And it would give engineers a way to understand the difficulties of building elevators into space without taking on the immense challenge of building on on Earth first.


Written by Fraser Cain



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GoogleNaut

Date:
RE: Prometheus project: Mission to Neptune Under S


Very interesting. And this just illustrates the excellent point of why I like to interact with boards like this--'cause I hadn't thought of that!

Yes, I can see how a carbon fiber cable reaching down from L1 could be used to pluck small payloads from the surface. Establishing a lunar mining infrastructure could to scout for and recover carbonaceous material from the moon would be ideal. Follow up construction could reinforce the L1 fiber by adding runners to it.

If memory serves, the L1 Lagrange point is something like 30000 miles beyond the moon. It might be a tad long--but because of the low gravity involved it could be quite doable.

A lunar elevator could be an ideal platform for transporting material up from the moon's surface. An L1 recieving station could transfer minerals, volatiles, and unfinished bulk materials to a nuclear thermal freighter. Using a very conservatively designed, and fairly low temperature nuclear thermal rocket using liquid oxygen for reaction mass could achieve the low delta-v needed for a transfer to L4 or L5. Not very efficient--kind of almost 'low tech' but oxygen will be available by the megaton once a lot of metal refining of lunar regolith begins.

I think it could work...

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GoogleNaut

Date:

I forgot to mention: space elevators could also be an obvious way of transmitting electricity generated from solar power satellites to the Earth's surface. Eventually energy will become one of the most important imports for Earth, and the source of great income for space industries.

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Dusty

Date:
RE: Prometheus project: Mission to Neptune Under Study


indeed, a lunar space elevator changes everything as far as the worth of moonbases are concerned!


Having said that, I have always thought that the one big problem with space elevators is that if we had the heavy lift capability necessarry to build one we wouldnt need it


on another note, my sugestion that Iron would be the material of choice for most applications is down to the fact that it is not only likly to be one of the most abundant asteroid minerals but also by far the easyest to extract and puryfy! obviously space elecvators require high tech materials but I would not be at all surprised if space constructed space ships, habitats etc ended up with steel hulls 



Dusty


 



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GoogleNaut

Date:
RE: Prometheus project: Mission to Neptune Under S


Indeed. Materials science should flourish in a space industrial setting. Many new alloys, impossible to make on Earth because of gravity, should be possible and practical to make in vacuum and zero g. Things like glass+steel alloys (I can't think of any applications, but that shouldn't stop somebody from trying to make it...you never know...) How about foamed aluminum girders? SiC fiber reinforced iron extrusions? Aluminum-Calcium alloys? How about Nickel-Steel (a native alloy found in nickel-iron asteroids and meteorites--and it is almost as tough as tool steel!) There are thousands of other possible combinations which I can't even imagine--these will all be explored when we get there. I am sure that many new and wonderful alloys will be invented.

As far as the question of what to do first ("...the egg or the chicken...?")--we're still going to need a heavy lift capacity booster whether we go for space elevators or not. So we should build them first.

Eventually for the really big engineering projects--we're going to need space elevators. Conceptually, I can see a time when a stable ring could be built around the equator of the Earth--one huge ring station. Originally constructed of segments in orbit, the segments could be connected together to form a single ring which could then be despun to synchronize to the Earth's spin. This ring could be built not in orbit, but as a co-rotating, self supporting arch all the way around the planet maybe 300km above the surface. Space elevators, suspended from this ring could go all the way to the surface. Loads could be transported all the way around the planet by Sky Trains (trams suspended beneath the ring or inside the ring.) Indeed, most commerce could be tranpsorted in this fassion. However, I can see a time when the ring will itself be large enough to house virtually everyone anyways, so Earth may become one gigantic wild life preserve. Electromagnet launchers, girdling the ring (maybe even a part of the basic structure of the ring) could gently accelerate payloads to Earth escape velocity. Returning vessels could aerobrake in the atmosphere before performing a flying 'capture' with the Ring Station.

Other large engineering projects could be the Terraforming of Venus and Mars. Eventually, when we have grown enough technologically and culturally, we will be ready to tackle the stars. The speed limitations imposed by physics need not necessarily be limitations to us--if we are willing to think and plan for long term goals (perhaps thousands of years ahead) and we are willing to build big enough (50 km Space Colony sized World Ships!) Who knows, someday we may be able to find the FTL shortcut of science fiction. But we won't get anywhere if we don't start now. And it all begins with a single idea sparking the imagination to become a collection of like minded folks who want something better for themselves and their kids.

To steal the use of the title of a science fiction novel, it's time for us to "Inherit the Stars!"

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Dusty

Date:
RE: Prometheus project: Mission to Neptune Under Study


I like it, It is a sort of ringworld. In the same way that an orbit is "falling for ever" your ring structure is an "arch without ends".


Unlike the "Ringworld" however it a compression structure (I wonder what tensile/compressive properties would be required to build such a structure) and considerably more do-able since it doesnt need to travel at 700Km/S to produce its own artificial gravity.


The worst bit would be the de-orbiting. Before the "towers" (for want of a better description) are in place tying the ring to the ground the entire structure would be extreemly unstable.


OTOH a structural failure would be catastrophic. the entire ring would fall to earth-there would be no survivors!!


perhaps putting the bulk of the population in the ring may not be such a good idea.



Dusty


 



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GoogleNaut

Date:
RE: Prometheus project: Mission to Neptune Under S


Granted about the structural failure--however, once again I assume that it would be a byproduct of an advanced civilization--one that spans the entire solar system and probably extends to nearby stars as well (I hope.)

To despin the structure so that it is synchronous with the Earth could be accomplished be accelerating ballast masses along the ring., and then jettisoning them along tangents. The resultant momentum exchange will slow the ring.

I only thought of the ring as an idea to illustrate what a truly advanced species could do with engineering. The problems of stabilizing something like that, coupled with the enivronmental consequences of the Ring Station's shadow cast on the ground could not be ignored in reality.

However, were I an artist, I suppose I would do a painting of it. The view of the Ring Station should be tremendous; the view from the station should be equally subperb.

Perhaps someday it could be built.

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10kBq jaro

Date:
RE: Prometheus project: Mission to Neptune Under Study


returning to the original story.....


http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/neptune_orbiter_techwed_041215.html


Reaching Toward Neptune: Two Ways to Explore an Ice Giant


By Tariq Malik


Staff Writer


posted: 15 December 2004


While a pair of NASA rovers explore Mars and the Cassini-Huygens mission peers close at Saturn, two research teams are targeting a more distant planetary quarry, the ice giant Neptune.


In the separate studies, planetary scientists and engineers are drawing up plans to send an orbiter laden with atmospheric probes and landers to Neptune, the eighth planet from the Sun. While each mission has its own way of reaching Neptune, both seek a better understanding of the planet and its surrounding 13 known moons, especially the oddball Triton.


"It's all part of the history of our solar system," said Andrew Ingersoll, a study leader and planetary scientist at the California Institute of Technology (CalTech), in a telephone interview. "Neptune and Uranus are ice giants, and made mostly of heavier stuff than Jupiter or Saturn."


Ingersoll and his colleagues envision a Cassini-like mission that could use conventional rocket propulsion and gravity assists to reach Neptune.


Meanwhile, another version of the Neptune mission, which features the use of a nuclear fission reactor and ion propulsion to reach the ice giant and a timescale that spans two decades, is also under scrutiny.


"What makes Neptune unique is Triton," explained David Atkinson, a University of Idaho professor and the science principal investigator for the second study, in an e-mail interview. "It is speculated that Triton is actually a Kuiper Belt Object that was captured by Neptune."


Boeing Satellite Systems' Bernie Bienstock leads the second study with Atkinson.


Both Neptune mission efforts are part of NASA's Vision Mission program to develop long-term space exploration goals.


The funny thing about Neptune


Neptune sits about 2.7 billion miles (4.4 billion kilometers) from the Sun. Voyager 2 swung by the planet in 1989 and Pluto, because of its orbit, periodically wanders inside Neptune's orbit.


Since Neptune is an ice giant, a dedicated mission to the planet would yield not only more about its formation and evolution, but also how such planets fit into the solar system, Atkinson said.


"The chemical make-up [of an ice giant] is different from gas giants like Jupiter," Paul Steffes, a radio scientist and member of the nuclear electric Neptune team, told SPACE.com. "It's less affected by the inner solar system bodies and more representative of the primordial solar nebula."


While the same case for exploration can be made for Uranus, a fellow ice giant, the kicker is Neptune's largest moon Triton, which astronomers believe is a non-native captive of its parent planet. It circles Neptune in a retrograde orbit, in the opposite direction of Neptune's rotation. It has a gossamer thin atmosphere where parachutes would be useless for any landing probe.


"Triton is just a really interesting object," Ingersoll said, adding that Neptune's partial ring arcs add to planetary system's draw.


Getting there sooner


Ingersoll's Neptune-bound craft would take a page from many of NASA's far-flung planetary exploration missions and rely on radioisotope thermal generators (RTGs), a long-lasting battery fueled by plutonium, for electric power. The Cassini orbiter currently at Saturn, for example, uses RTGs for power since the vast distance makes solar panels unpractical.


"Yes, we'd need RTGs and yes RTGs carry plutonium," Ingersoll said, adding that the power source can only a danger if it is vaporized over a city, a very unlikely case since most launch scenarios would have them dropping into the ocean in an emergency. "There's been a lot if irrationality about nuclear power and fuels."


Ingersoll's team estimates their spacecraft would take about 12 years to reach Neptune, but stopping once it arrives may be a challenge. His team is studying how to use aerocapture, a maneuver that allows a spacecraft to enter orbit around a planet using the atmosphere and no fuel. While NASA has experience with aerobraking, a gentler, fuel-burning maneuver, it has yet to use aerocapture in a mission.


"The most challenging thing technologically for us is to fly an aerocapture mission to Earth or Mars to demonstrate that it can be done," Ingersoll said, adding that the method occurs at higher speeds and digs deeper into a planet's atmosphere than aerobraking. It may also require a heat shield for thermal protection, he added.


Neptune's Prometheus


A nuclear electric propulsion Neptune flight would build on NASA's plans for the Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter (JIMO) mission under Project Prometheus, which is expected to use a nuclear fission reactor to power an ion engine.


The method is slow. An ion engine propelled Neptune mission launched around 2016 would take time to build up enough thrust to reach the planet, entering orbit around 2035, researchers said. But once there, the spacecraft would still have a large fuel and power supply for a long-duration stay.


"Since this mission may very well be the only mission to Neptune this century, it is important the complete Neptune system be studied in detail," Atkinson said, adding that the sheer power provided by a Prometheus-type spacecraft would provide that opportunity.


But finding a way to integrate enough science instruments, detectors, cameras and other equipment, not to mention daughter spacecraft designed to separate and explore on their own, is still a large challenge in order to justify the 20-year mission, Atkinson said.


"At the present time, there is not a launch vehicle with enough capacity to launch a single Orbiter spacecraft capable of transporting Neptune Entry Probes and two Triton landers to Neptune," he added.


Probes and landers


In addition to an orbiting spacecraft that would make the rounds of the Neptunian system, NASA called for researchers to address the need for probes and landers in their respective studies.


Both teams envision sending a trio of atmospheric probes plunging into Neptune, each at different latitudes in order to provide a diverse look at the planet. Ingersoll's team favors the shotgun method, unleashing all three of its probes in one blow. Bienstock and Atkinson's study, however, plans to release the probes sequentially.


"The plan is to use identical probes...to learn from each deployment," Steffes said.


Both studies are also looking at sending a pair of Triton landers, though setting the spacecraft down on the icy moon may be tricky. The surface is an extreme 35 degrees Kelvin (-238 degrees Celsius), and since Triton sports geysers and possibly seismic activity, landers would have to operate for long periods of time to monitor it.


"Landing on Triton is not trivial," Atkinson said, adding that conventional landing rockets could contaminate Triton's surface near spacecraft so some other method is required. "The atmosphere is too thin for parachutes and it is unlikely a rocket-controlled soft landing system can be used."


But Atkinson has ample time to find the best way to stick a Triton landing. NASA has funded his study with Bienstock, as well as Ingersoll's until mid-2005, when their final recommendations will be submitted to the space agency.


"So it's a pretty interesting place," Ingersoll said of Neptune and its satellites. "For Voyager [2], Neptune was certainly the most photogenic of the ice giants."



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